Since I have become interested in knowing more about Islam, I decided to read the Quran. And, since the Quran is probably not on the top of your Best-Loved-Books list (unless you are Muslim), I've decided to share some of what I've learned with you. It will broaden your knowledge base without taking too much of your time!
First off, I read the Kindle Koran and it was written in Old English (King James style) which made it rather more tedious than was necessary, but it's what I had, so I made do.
The Quran, meaning "the recitation" is the best known portion of written doctrines for Muslims. Westerners think of it as the bible of Islam. Muslims believe it is a verbatim word from Allah (Arabic for God). It was compiled by the leaders of the followers of Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, from statements made by the prophet over a period of 23 years. He said he received the teachings in the Quran in revelations from Allah through the angel Gabriel. He experienced his first vision when he was 40 years old, around 611 A.D.
Being an avid Bible scholar for many years, I was interested to see how reading the Quran would compare with reading the Bible and I was quite surprised. I did not expect it to feel inspired when I read it because I believe only the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, but I expected it to be something more than it was, simply because so many Muslims accept it as their sacred book.
My overall impression was not positive. It claims to be the final word from God given through His final Prophet, Muhammad. It claims superiority over The Old and The New Testaments because it claims they have been corrupted through time. It uses the sacred books of the Holy Bible to bolster its claims of inspiration even as it disparages them. It claims that Allah, the one and only God, is the God of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Lot, etc., even though Allah is not YEHOVAH. Allah seeks to replace YEHOVAH and demote Jesus to the status of a man who is a lower order of a prophet than Muhammad. And, for all that, in quality, the Quran seems like a candle next to the Bible which is a SUN by comparison.
The Quran lacks a chronological historical flow. It proclaims that Allah is the Creator and mentions the creation of mankind, sun, moon, stars, plants, animals, and Jinns (good or evil spirits), in various places; but there is no coherent creation story which puts it all together in perspective. There is no good reason given for creation. There is no development of a loving relationship between Allah and his creation or his creatures. Allah is a distant god who maintains a transcendent relationship with his creation.
There are no lengthy, well-developed stories about main characters with family lines that can be related to in a coherent fashion like one finds in the Bible. There are oft-repeated short stories about Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Pharaoh, Lot, Joseph, Mary and Jesus, Adam and Eve, and a few others; but the stories are inaccurate and totally disjointed. If I had no biblical knowledge I would have been totally confused about their true place or purpose in history.
Mohammad was rejected by the Arabs when he first started sharing his Quranic messages from Allah. So, it seems he used Abraham, Lot, Noah, Moses, and a few other non-Biblical characters, as examples of prophets who were sent to warn people about coming judgement and were also rejected. In that context, he was able to threaten those who rejected him with the same types of destruction which had befallen those who had rejected the previous prophets.
The Quran is full of threats of Hell, fire and punishments for Kafirs (those who do not believe in Allah and His Prophet). There are nearly 500 verses on punishments. After reading all that, I realized, by comparison, the Bible hardly mentions Hell at all. (The Quran, a book with 114 chapters, has 172 punishment with fire verses, and 97 Hell verses, besides other punishments. The New Testament has only 27 verses about Hell and Hades, and the Old Testament has 37 verses about Hell and Sheol. That's less than 1 verse per book in the Bible and many of them are non-threatening references like "You will not leave my soul in Sheol" and "If I make my bed in Hell, You are there."
Quran samples:
[17:8] "We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers."
[32:13 ] "I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together."
[98:6] "Surely those who disbelieve (in Islam) from among the followers of the Book (Bible) and the polytheists (believers in the Trinity) shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men."
And that reminds me of a joke: There was a church who was happy to have a pastor leave because they thought he preached too much about hell. After they had their new pastor for awhile, someone asked what they liked about him and they said they liked his preaching on hell. What was the difference? They said the first pastor preached about hell like he wanted them to go there! The second pastor wanted to save them from it!
That is the difference one can feel between the Quran and the Bible. The Quran seems to delight in describing the tortures non-believers and the wicked will be forced to endure. It makes it clear that Allah has created those who go to hell for that purpose and nothing will change their destiny. Whereas The Bible says Hell was "created for the devil and his angels" and God delights in providing a way to help us avoid going there! Jesus, the God-Man-Savior, is the heart of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation!
The Quran is also loaded with promises of rewards for believers in Allah who perform enough good works to make up for whatever bad they have done. Allah says everyone must bear their own load. No one else can provide help for them. They must profess a belief in Allah and His Prophet, be diligent in daily prayers, practice charity, practice fasting, travel to Mecca once in their life, if possible, and follow Quranic teachings.
The rewards for believers are gardens with rivers flowing under them, an endless supply of fruit, milk, wine, honey, meat, etc. Green silk clothing, green silk couches, green carpets and pearls, silver and gold for adornment. There are youths to serve refreshments. There are also mansions and other gardens with beautiful young virgins for those whose deeds (killing Kafirs) merit extra benefits.
For believers who make it, the afterlife is a place of leisure, pleasure and abundance. Whatever the heart desires will be provided. The problem is, since it is based on works, no one knows if they will make it until the day of judgement when the books are opened and all deeds are reviewed and Allah decides who is deserving. The Quran says Allah is just and fair. Your deeds decide your fate.
At first I was surprised at the many similarities between Allah and Our Heavenly Father. Allah claims many of the familiar attributes of God that we understand; such as, Everywhere Present, All-Knowing, All-Good, and All-Powerful. He also claims to be the only God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and all that fills them, the First and the Last, Sovereign, Infinite, Almighty, Just, Exalted, Wise, Holy, King, etc.
However, it is obvious that Allah revealed himself as far less relational than Our Father in Heaven. The Quran says repeatedly that Allah is one and cannot be more than one! It repeatedly says Allah has no son! Nothing is equal-to or like Him. He has revealed no physical form and stays aloof from His creation. He presents himself as unknowable by mere humans.
Consider these statements carefully. Allah has no loving communion revealed in a Godhead relationship like the Trinity shares (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He claims to be an absolute loner. He has no divine son like Jesus and He has no sons and daughters like us. He never claims a close, loving relationship with His creatures like Our Father in Heaven does.
[4.171] Allah is only one God; far be it from His glory that He should have a son,
[5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones.
Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created...
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths... may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
[18.4] And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son.
[23.91] Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god--
Anyone who takes the Bible seriously would have to reject the authority and authenticity of the Quran. Our Heavenly Father proclaims His love for all mankind throughout both the Old and the New Testament. He sent His Son, Jesus, to be with us in a human form so we could know Him personally. And because He loved us "while we were still sinners" He allowed His Son to die on the cross for our sins so we can have eternal life--and know it before we face the judgement.
Allah is not like our God. Allah loves "the doers of good, those who guard (against his brand of evil), the patient, those who trust, those who judge equitably, those who are careful (of their duty), the doers of justice, and those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall." Allah does not love "the unjust, the proud, the treacherous, the sinful, the extravagant, the unfaithful, the ungrateful, the exultant, the self-conceited, the boastful, any ungrateful sinner and unbelievers (those who disobey Allah or his Apostle)."
Allah does not identify himself with his creation. Allah does not provide a sacrifice or any means to help save sinners from his judgement wrath to come. He requires submission to His will and good works to earn one's own salvation--if possible. No guarantees.
Let's close with some scriptures that assure us of Our Heavenly Father's love and provision for us. If you are not a child of God by faith in Jesus, I encourage you to believe His word and invite Him into your heart even as you read these passages.
"See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are." 1 John 3:1
"Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32
"In this is love, not that we love God but that He loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation of our sins." 1 John 4:10
"We are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ."
Rom 8:17
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
"God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world that we might live through him." 1 John 4:9
"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!'" Gal 4:4-6
"When we cry, 'Abba! Father!', it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God." Romans 8:15-26.
"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
First off, I read the Kindle Koran and it was written in Old English (King James style) which made it rather more tedious than was necessary, but it's what I had, so I made do.
The Quran, meaning "the recitation" is the best known portion of written doctrines for Muslims. Westerners think of it as the bible of Islam. Muslims believe it is a verbatim word from Allah (Arabic for God). It was compiled by the leaders of the followers of Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, from statements made by the prophet over a period of 23 years. He said he received the teachings in the Quran in revelations from Allah through the angel Gabriel. He experienced his first vision when he was 40 years old, around 611 A.D.
Being an avid Bible scholar for many years, I was interested to see how reading the Quran would compare with reading the Bible and I was quite surprised. I did not expect it to feel inspired when I read it because I believe only the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, but I expected it to be something more than it was, simply because so many Muslims accept it as their sacred book.
My overall impression was not positive. It claims to be the final word from God given through His final Prophet, Muhammad. It claims superiority over The Old and The New Testaments because it claims they have been corrupted through time. It uses the sacred books of the Holy Bible to bolster its claims of inspiration even as it disparages them. It claims that Allah, the one and only God, is the God of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Lot, etc., even though Allah is not YEHOVAH. Allah seeks to replace YEHOVAH and demote Jesus to the status of a man who is a lower order of a prophet than Muhammad. And, for all that, in quality, the Quran seems like a candle next to the Bible which is a SUN by comparison.
The Quran lacks a chronological historical flow. It proclaims that Allah is the Creator and mentions the creation of mankind, sun, moon, stars, plants, animals, and Jinns (good or evil spirits), in various places; but there is no coherent creation story which puts it all together in perspective. There is no good reason given for creation. There is no development of a loving relationship between Allah and his creation or his creatures. Allah is a distant god who maintains a transcendent relationship with his creation.
There are no lengthy, well-developed stories about main characters with family lines that can be related to in a coherent fashion like one finds in the Bible. There are oft-repeated short stories about Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Pharaoh, Lot, Joseph, Mary and Jesus, Adam and Eve, and a few others; but the stories are inaccurate and totally disjointed. If I had no biblical knowledge I would have been totally confused about their true place or purpose in history.
Mohammad was rejected by the Arabs when he first started sharing his Quranic messages from Allah. So, it seems he used Abraham, Lot, Noah, Moses, and a few other non-Biblical characters, as examples of prophets who were sent to warn people about coming judgement and were also rejected. In that context, he was able to threaten those who rejected him with the same types of destruction which had befallen those who had rejected the previous prophets.
The Quran is full of threats of Hell, fire and punishments for Kafirs (those who do not believe in Allah and His Prophet). There are nearly 500 verses on punishments. After reading all that, I realized, by comparison, the Bible hardly mentions Hell at all. (The Quran, a book with 114 chapters, has 172 punishment with fire verses, and 97 Hell verses, besides other punishments. The New Testament has only 27 verses about Hell and Hades, and the Old Testament has 37 verses about Hell and Sheol. That's less than 1 verse per book in the Bible and many of them are non-threatening references like "You will not leave my soul in Sheol" and "If I make my bed in Hell, You are there."
Quran samples:
[17:8] "We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers."
[32:13 ] "I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together."
[98:6] "Surely those who disbelieve (in Islam) from among the followers of the Book (Bible) and the polytheists (believers in the Trinity) shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men."
And that reminds me of a joke: There was a church who was happy to have a pastor leave because they thought he preached too much about hell. After they had their new pastor for awhile, someone asked what they liked about him and they said they liked his preaching on hell. What was the difference? They said the first pastor preached about hell like he wanted them to go there! The second pastor wanted to save them from it!
That is the difference one can feel between the Quran and the Bible. The Quran seems to delight in describing the tortures non-believers and the wicked will be forced to endure. It makes it clear that Allah has created those who go to hell for that purpose and nothing will change their destiny. Whereas The Bible says Hell was "created for the devil and his angels" and God delights in providing a way to help us avoid going there! Jesus, the God-Man-Savior, is the heart of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation!
The Quran is also loaded with promises of rewards for believers in Allah who perform enough good works to make up for whatever bad they have done. Allah says everyone must bear their own load. No one else can provide help for them. They must profess a belief in Allah and His Prophet, be diligent in daily prayers, practice charity, practice fasting, travel to Mecca once in their life, if possible, and follow Quranic teachings.
The rewards for believers are gardens with rivers flowing under them, an endless supply of fruit, milk, wine, honey, meat, etc. Green silk clothing, green silk couches, green carpets and pearls, silver and gold for adornment. There are youths to serve refreshments. There are also mansions and other gardens with beautiful young virgins for those whose deeds (killing Kafirs) merit extra benefits.
For believers who make it, the afterlife is a place of leisure, pleasure and abundance. Whatever the heart desires will be provided. The problem is, since it is based on works, no one knows if they will make it until the day of judgement when the books are opened and all deeds are reviewed and Allah decides who is deserving. The Quran says Allah is just and fair. Your deeds decide your fate.
At first I was surprised at the many similarities between Allah and Our Heavenly Father. Allah claims many of the familiar attributes of God that we understand; such as, Everywhere Present, All-Knowing, All-Good, and All-Powerful. He also claims to be the only God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and all that fills them, the First and the Last, Sovereign, Infinite, Almighty, Just, Exalted, Wise, Holy, King, etc.
However, it is obvious that Allah revealed himself as far less relational than Our Father in Heaven. The Quran says repeatedly that Allah is one and cannot be more than one! It repeatedly says Allah has no son! Nothing is equal-to or like Him. He has revealed no physical form and stays aloof from His creation. He presents himself as unknowable by mere humans.
Consider these statements carefully. Allah has no loving communion revealed in a Godhead relationship like the Trinity shares (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He claims to be an absolute loner. He has no divine son like Jesus and He has no sons and daughters like us. He never claims a close, loving relationship with His creatures like Our Father in Heaven does.
[4.171] Allah is only one God; far be it from His glory that He should have a son,
[5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones.
Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created...
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths... may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
[18.4] And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son.
[23.91] Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god--
Anyone who takes the Bible seriously would have to reject the authority and authenticity of the Quran. Our Heavenly Father proclaims His love for all mankind throughout both the Old and the New Testament. He sent His Son, Jesus, to be with us in a human form so we could know Him personally. And because He loved us "while we were still sinners" He allowed His Son to die on the cross for our sins so we can have eternal life--and know it before we face the judgement.
Allah is not like our God. Allah loves "the doers of good, those who guard (against his brand of evil), the patient, those who trust, those who judge equitably, those who are careful (of their duty), the doers of justice, and those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall." Allah does not love "the unjust, the proud, the treacherous, the sinful, the extravagant, the unfaithful, the ungrateful, the exultant, the self-conceited, the boastful, any ungrateful sinner and unbelievers (those who disobey Allah or his Apostle)."
Allah does not identify himself with his creation. Allah does not provide a sacrifice or any means to help save sinners from his judgement wrath to come. He requires submission to His will and good works to earn one's own salvation--if possible. No guarantees.
Let's close with some scriptures that assure us of Our Heavenly Father's love and provision for us. If you are not a child of God by faith in Jesus, I encourage you to believe His word and invite Him into your heart even as you read these passages.
"See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are." 1 John 3:1
"Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32
"In this is love, not that we love God but that He loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation of our sins." 1 John 4:10
"We are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ."
Rom 8:17
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
"God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
"In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world that we might live through him." 1 John 4:9
"But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!'" Gal 4:4-6
"When we cry, 'Abba! Father!', it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God." Romans 8:15-26.
"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
"I have loved you with an everlasting love". Jeremiah 31:3
I haven't covered everything of interest in the Quran so I may continue this in another blog. I hope this has been enlightening, encouraging and a blessing to you whether you are Christian, Muslim or otherwise.
You are loved!
Hi first off i'm a muslim, i read this article with the natural curiosity of knowing what an atheist would think of the Quran as the opinion would stand on a less prejudiced viewpoint than the one that was listed here.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean by this is, that it seems an illogical fallacy to determine the quality of a book based on the quality of another book you believe to be correct by faith alone.
In Islam God is God not something we would like him to be, of course it would be nice to be given a gurantee of heaven and that you are not accountable for any sin, no matter how small or great, but the easiest road is not necessarily the best.
For example, in Pantheistic religions it is far easier to find salvation, you don't have to do anything, there is no hell / punishment and you become one with God after you die, so the reward seems greater. That doesn't necessarily mean its the correct belief system. It may be for some and i'm not here to judge which is correct, thats an individual choice but an attempt to demonise any religion would herald fruit. Quoting selected passages out of context can be used anywhere.
But if comparing, the Quran and the Bible an honest attempt should be made. For example, there is one one Quran, no version. There are a number of bibles, some with 66 books, 73 books, King James version, RSV which is missing a number of passages from KJV, including the first epistle of John, assension etc. There are 50,000 ancient segements which are listed as manuscripts and non are identical. There are 4 gospels written by anonymous authors and are attributed to matthew, mark, luke and john, though the preface tells you they didn't. Paul who wrote about 50% of the new testament had never even met Jesus, yet his companions to whom he preached, wrote nothing? etc. But the most baffling thing is where is the the Gospel of Jesus, I can go on.
In comparison, the Quran is One, where ever it is in the world. The original arabic is still with Muslims and unchanged. It came from one person who is claimed to be our Prophet, not 40 like the bible. And its always interesting when Christians try to premote this is as positive.
If the Quran wrote out historical facts such as, "in the begining...., then this happened, then this", that would be a negative in my eyes for the reason that, thats how man talks not GOD.
Sure Islam believes that Man has been made in Gods image, but not litterally, as in christianity. It believes God has emotions albeit at a different level and understanding to humans, humans possess and can understand the meaning of there emotions and His and so share this fundamental attribute.
In Christianity, God can become a man.
In Islam God, is eternal unimaginable and has no form we as humans can understand.
Hi, Rehan.
DeleteWelcome to my blog.
The Holy Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing...the Word of God." I know that to be true in my life so I will try to answer you with the wisdom found in God's Word as much as possible.
You said, "In Islam God is God not something we would like him to be, of course it would be nice to be given a gurantee of heaven and that you are not accountable for any sin, no matter how small or great, but the easiest road is not necessarily the best."
May I agree with you? You are right when you say, "the easiest road is not necessarily the best." The best road was walked by Jesus and it was not an easy road. Jesus left heaven, became a man, and died for our sins so we wouldn't have to. God's Word tells us that He tasted death "for every man" that He "might bring us to God." Please read and ask God to help you understand.
"But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste death for every man" (Heb. 2:9).
Peter said, "Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" (1 Pet. 3:18).
You said, "it would be nice to be given a gurantee of heaven and that you are not accountable for any sin, no matter how small or great."
Jesus is our guarantee of heaven! These passages tell us that Jesus Christ suffered for our sins so we would not have to.
Colossians 1:21-22 says, "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy . . . ."
Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
These passages are all a part of the Gospel of Jesus you asked about. No, He didn't write a book. He lived a perfect life and died in our place to freely give us life, and He sent the Holy Spirit to inspire His followers to write books about His accomplishments to lead people to salvation.
part 1
part 2
DeleteThere are many other versions of the Koran out there, but you are right about there being only one Arabic Koran today. This is because during the rule of UTHMAN, the third Caliph following the death of Muhammad, all the copies of the Koran in various Arabic dialects and all fragments and scraps of Koranic verses were collected and burned. See Muslim history below.
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
According to Muslim historians many Koranic verses were lost before Uthman had the official Koran compiled because Muslims who had memorized them were killed in battle. Also, Muhammad had allowed portions of the Koran to be quoted in many different ways before Uthman's Koran became the official version. Because of the burning of the fragments Muslims have nothing to compare to check the Koran for accuracy.
The Holy Bible has been preserved in a multitude of fragments and manuscripts over thousands of years which can be compared to prove its accuracy from ancient times. God inspired and preserved His Word in miraculous ways!
In closing, I am so thankful we have a knowable God. In Himself, He is "eternal unimaginable." And, that is why He came in the flesh to reveal Himself to us so we could know Him and love Him as He knows and loves us! We are His people.
I hope you found this enlightening. Thanks for commenting.
Hi Cherel,
DeleteYou have no idea how much i'm pleased by the fact that you have posted my comments on your blog, for that I thank you, dearly.
To begin with i would like to point out that there are passages in the bibles that promote faith alone and faith and good works. But notice how all the passages you quoted are written by Paul not by Jesus. Paul wrote a number of letters to different groups and areas in which he promoted faith alone. For example his letter to the galations became the book of galations, his letter to the romans became the book of romans and so on. But as I mentioned before Paul had never met Jesus and the new testament also speaks about how Pauls message was differnt to that of the companions of Jesus.
Interesting and in stark contrast, if you look at what Jesus said in his own words (red letter bible), he clearly speaks of good works along with faith. A number of passages can be quoted but i will only give a few.
"Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:20
How is this possible without keeping the commandments?
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."
Matthew 16:27
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:17
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
James 2:14
I don't want to take up too much space with quotes, refer to: Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 10:16, Ecclesiastes 12:14, Jeremiah 17:10, Ezekiel 18:27 and so on.
The question i find myself asking is that the old testament clearly refers to faith and good works, jesus also refers to faith and good works, paul says faith alone is enough, which i should i believe? Also why were all the people up to the point of jesus required to do good works?
To me even logically a religion should premote good works, that is one of its functions, ignoring this is unsatisfactory.
Its difficult for all of us to have a look at something without prejudice. Its said in the west that Muslims are all about violence and hate and wars, that we are illiterate and stupid and don't know whats good for us, we can't see the truth, but truth isn't something thats believed it must be proven.
On the subject of the Quran not being original. This is often one that is thrown at Muslims without looking at other hadith or proofs, the answer to your question is in the hadith you quoted.
DeleteSo 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you."
The question you should ask is, which manuscripts?
You see its a misconception that Uthman compiled the Quran. Uthman was a companion of the the Prophet, to compare to Christianity, one of disciples. If he alone had compiled it that should be enough. Imagine if one of the disciples had compiled the bible and gave it his seal of approval, would you not love that history over the one you have now?
Uthman was also the third Kaliph and the third most revered companion, but he did not compile it. I could quote you hadith, if you so wish that the Quran was written down during the time of the Prophet and memorised by the companions, but i do not wish to take up space, if you require evidence for anything i say, ask and it will be provided.
The Quran was compiled into one book by the first Kaliph Abu Bakr, the most revered companion, by taking all the parts that were memorised and written on stone, bone etc, and compiling it into one book.
His reign lasted only a couple of years. That is he died 2 years after the Prophet died, so you can imagine how close it was to the time of the Prophet. You see the Arabic language has dialects, which are like accents. For example, there are two letter K's in the Arabic alphabet, one said from the front of the throat, which is like the 'k' in english and one from the back which sounds closer to the letter 'Q', hence Muslims know this and help the westerner out by spelling it out with a 'Q' but the westerner thinks we are being silly and writes it with a 'K' and to a muslim pronouncing it with a 'K' is changing its meaning. For example in Arabic, Kalb mean 'dog', Qalb means heart. Thus drastically changing its meaning, a westerner cannot differentiate between the two because they don't have two k's.
As the Quran began to spread to surrounding regions as Islam took off people began to pronounce it differnt, in differnt areas. So that the original Quraysh dialect would not be lost. Uthman ordered copies of the Quran compiled by Abu Bakr, put in the vowels and sent it out, after making copies to all others in other countries. Ordered the others are burnt because they were being written with the wrong vowels etc.
This he did to preserve the Quran, and is seen as a hero for doing this. Then he returned the original back to Hafsa.
There are ten dialects or pronunciations that can be used for the Quran, which Muslims can use, these are the ten from the Quraysh tribe, which Muslims still have till this day. The pronunciations that Uthman stopped were from surrounding regions, where the differing pronunciation would cause a subtle change in meaning.
You say there are no others to compare it with, like its a negative? Wouldn't you love a bible that was written during the lifetime of Jesus, compiled into one book by the closest disciple to jesus and spread through other countries by the third closest disciple? With only one copy where ever you looked. You say there are other versions of the Quran, but only one in Arabic.
DeleteThere are no other versions, no matter how much websites like answering Islam and other Islamaphobics try to make others believe, there are differing translations that all contain the original Arabic on the other side of the page. Versions are quite differnt, segments missing, differing books or user of differing sources are version. Using the same arabic and using different words to translate are not versions. There is only one version.
You say the bible has preserved a multitude of fragments throughout, that can be used to prove it has never changed. Yet you must know that none of the manuscripts are identical, so how do they prove anything? We have Qurans from the time of the prophet all the way up till now throughout multiple countries and the Arabic is the same. Forget what you have been told, which proves authenticity more, logically?
You should know also that the bible manuscripts are written in Greek when they were copied in the library of Alexandria, yet the originals would have been written in aramaic/hebrew. It is often said that you have fragment up till 50 years after Mark/Mathew but this is not true. You have fragments that were translated to Greek hundreds of years later, and you believe that the original source text from which it was copied went up to 50 years after Mark/Mathew.
I too hope you have found what I have said enlightening and you have no idea how much respect you have gained from posting my words on your blog. Thank you.
Regards,
Rehan
Part 1 Paul met Jesus and Faith vs Works
DeleteGood to hear from you again!
You said, "Paul had never met Jesus and the new testament also speaks about how Pauls message was different to that of the companions of Jesus."
Paul did meet Jesus. A bright light from heaven blinded Saul/Paul and Jesus spoke to Him. Jesus said, "Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting Me?" "Who are you, LORD?" Saul asked. And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!" Acts 9:4-5 Jesus then gave him instructions for his conversion.
See Gal 1:15-17
Jesus personally taught Paul the good news of salvation. In 2nd Cor, chapter 12,Paul speaks of being "caught up to paradise" and receiving revelations "not even lawful for a man to talk about."
Paul's message was different because of his calling to preach to Gentiles. He met with the church council at Jerusalem and they agreed that Christians do not live under the law because Jesus fulfilled all requirements of the law for us. And Paul taught what Jesus revealed to him.
As for good works versus faith, every religion besides Christianity bases salvation on good works because they have no Savior!
The Jewish law required good works and animal sacrifices but neither "saved the Jews." The law showed them they were sinners. The sacrifices taught them that the penalty for sin is death and rolled away the judgement for their sins one year at a time (till the next day of Atonement). Salvation for the Jews was based on looking forward "in faith" to their Messiah who would take away their sins!
The spirit of Abraham and of all the OT saints who died in faith awaited the death of Jesus on the cross to pay for their sins so they could be eternally saved. When Jesus died he delivered them...
"Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit.
At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people." Matt 27:50-53
Jesus did say His followers should do good works, not to earn salvation, but to show that they are saved by grace through faith in the blood of Jesus. Jesus, Himself, narrowed the law down to loving God and loving one's neighbor (any person one meets). Speaking of the law, Jesus set a higher standard for His followers. He said, "It has been said... but I say." (The law says don't murder, I say don't hate! The law says don't commit adultery, I say don't lust after a woman in your heart. Etc.)
Love fulfills the requirement of the law! Jesus set the example for us, saved us by His blood, and empowers us to live righteously by His Holy Spirit.
As you said, all religions should promote good works and Christianity has promoted more good works than any other religion. Good works based on gratitude for salvation.
Jesus spoke of works being judged for rewards. When a person is born again he is saved and will not face judgement for his sins because they are forgiven! From then on, God records his works to be judged by Jesus Christ for rewards. That judgement does not deal with sin but with works and rewards.
"...if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved..." 1 Cor 3:13-15
"For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body." 2nd Cor 5:10
Some people who claim to be Christians lean on grace and faith without works. But, anyone who has a clear understanding of what the Bible teaches practices good works to show their faith as James talked about.
Much more could be said, but I hope this reconciles the Old Testament, Jesus, James and Paul for you.
Part 2 Authentic Quran vs Bible
DeleteRehan, you said, "Wouldn't you love a bible that was written during the lifetime of Jesus, compiled into one book by the closest disciple to Jesus and spread through other countries by the third closest disciple?"
I love the Bible I have. It was written over a period of more than 1500 years by over 40 men inspired by the Holy Spirit! It is God's Holy Word! HE had it written and HE has protected it through thousands of years.
You said, "you must know that none of the manuscripts are identical, so how do they prove anything?"
It's true that the Bible has been translated into many languages, and comes in many versions today, but it is undeniably the authentic Word Of God. The manuscripts do have a few slight variations. That is why having so many copies is valuable. Comparing the oldest copies and the most copies which agree helps one weed out any possible manmade errors-- even though they are actually few.
Punctuation problems and a word or verse missing here or there in a particulaer manuscript does not alter God's message. God created us. God loves us. Adam and Eve sinned and brought sin into the world. We are born sinners and have all sinned and all need a savior. Jesus came to earth to die in our place so we could have eternal life with Him. We have a very clear life story filled with teachings and miracles performed by Him and His apostles which teach us how to be saved, impart faith, and show us how to live righteously.
The Bible tells us Jesus rose again and ascended to heaven to be with His Father until He returns to deliver Israel from sin and openly bring salvation to this earth as Jesus reigns from Jerusalem for 1000 years. And we even know what will happen after that.
Basic message: Today is the day of salvation for all mankind who will put their faith in Jesus and be born again. There is no other way to be saved.
There are many more details and they are in all the Bibles of every version! God has made sure His Word is available so that as many as possible will be saved.
The Quran, on the other hand, is very exclusive. It is supposed to be read in Arabic even though few people speak or read Arabic. Its message is not clear. It is not in chronological order. It is confusing to the average reader. Some verses are to be followed and some have been abrogated. One must study the Hadiths and Sunnas or listen to an imam to try to find out what it's all about. Salvation is uncertain unless one dies fighting jihad.
It's unclear why women would even want to go to paradise--other than to avoid the torments of hell. Rewards for them are not clearly outlined like they are for men. I see many problems with the Quran whether it is accurate from Mohammad's times or not. The message itself is not attractive to me. I believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of all mankind-- if they put their trust in Him.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan. I'll try to answer other comments you made later.
Hi Cherel, another great dialogue.
DeleteBefore I respond to your post. I'd like to bring up a couple of things from your post if I may and correct a few things, from my point of view, you can let me know if you disagree.
First off, you state that in your main blog:
"Allah claims many of the familiar attributes of God that we understand; such as, Everywhere Present, All-Knowing, All-Good, and All-Powerful."
This I'm afraid is an error. Although Allah is All powerful, All knowing etc, but He is not stated as being present everywhere in the Quran and neither in fact does the bible. You see the one main difference between eastern
pantheistic religions such as, Taoism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc is that they believe God is everywhere. Semetic religions
such as Judaism and Islam do not believe this and believe God to be above and beyond creation. The Quran states Allah
is above creation, above the heavens and is over his Arsh which is translated as throne but in Islam it is not a
literal throne but is from where Allah Rules and as it is above creation it is somewhere humans cannot imagine as human understanding is limited to the understanding of created things.
Judaism (orthodox) is the same, where God does not mix with his creation.
Logically, this makes sense, as a creator cannot be part of his creation, else he becomes creation. God is above such things, think about it if God is everywhere then he has to be everywhere, including sewerage systems, toilets, disgusting places. God is above these things and is above becoming part of any aspect of creation.
If God wanted us to not worship any aspect of creation, then why would he transcend and become any part of it? If God came in the form of a star, would that not be an advertisement to worship stars? If God came in the form of an animal that humans consider a worthy beast, such as a horse, but whose to say God would consider such a beast worthy to take its form, what would be the difference between a horse, cat, dog, mouse, rat or Pig to a God. Animals including humans have sexual organs, why would God need sexual organs? Why would God need parts to relieve himself? Why would God be
circumcised on the 7th day? Can you imagine, your God with someone around his organ circumcising him as is stated in
the bible? Anyway, theres much to be said about this but i wanted to touch on the logical argument first, i'll take up
the scriptual viewpoint some other day.
Christianity, has a similar view but it confuses the two by mixing the two concepts. The Father is in heaven and the
DeleteSon came into the world. Hence, it is both Pantheistic and non pantheistic in nature. You say Allah is far less relational than the God of the bible, but i disagree, yes God does not become a human in Islam but I don't see the
connection of how that makes him far less relational. Is God less relational to animals or angels because he hasn't
become one of them?
Christians from my own personal experience, view Muslims as lost, almost savages, uneducated etc. and are lost because
they know no better. And believe they should love us and educate us because the bible tells them to and believe this
to be an acceptable way regarding us. This is neither tolerance nor humanity. Rather than belittle us as such, why
can't Christians (not all) accept that we are educated individuals, who have based our research on reason and logic
and have chosen the word of Allah in the Quran, as more superior to that of the bible,just as the Christian has chosen the bible of the Quran. This is truly loving another. I find a warped way of thinking that is detrimenatal to Gods given logic to us as humans. We are viewed as war mongers because many of our countries are in war with the West, besides the fact Muslims havent attacked any Christian countries and it is the West that is currently in those Muslim countries attacking us. I don't get it, i really don't.
You raised alot of points, I'll answer them now.
You say Paul/Saul met Jesus, yet you know as well as me, that Jesus had died and ascended. Paul/Saul saw him in a vision. I say again he never met him, seeing someone in a vision is not the same as meeting them. There are people in India that believe they have visions of there Gods, there are Sufi's who believe they have visions of their saints after they are dead and are given hidden knowledge. Would you say they met them? I don't see why Christinaity has to be an exception when assessing all religions on the same scale. Logic, science and our own intellects don't need to be sacrificed for faith.
Notice Paul had the Vision, Paul preached a differnt message to Jesus but more importantly than the OT itself with which Jesus agreed and Paul himself up till that point was a pagan with no religious tutoring from Jesus himself. The other companions Jesus had taught i.e. how to pray, fast, worship etc. Paul got 3 years of preaching and more in a spell of a couple of minutes and it went against those of Jesus and his companions, Jesus's message was for the lost sheep of Israel, not for the gentiles. Also, again the verses you quoted are written by Paul himself regarding his vision and message, not by any verifiable third source. I'm just saying, you base your faith in the miracles of Jesus, but you follow Paul. It seems strange you don't follow Jesus's words but those of Paul, shouldn't of Jesus told Christendom to follow Paul, after him, and not his companions, especially if they had differnt messages to preach. I'm asking are you following Jesus or are you following Paul?
DeleteMichael H. Hart, in his book the 100 most influential people in history, said "St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament." It was for
this reason he rated Paul at number 6 of his list.
It doesn't take alot for an an All powerful God to forgive sin. God simply wills it. There is no need for a saviour to
be sacrificed, why is it inbuilt into the Christian psychology that someone has to die for sin to be forgiven? I
don't understand, yet when a Sin is committed by a Christian they repent and hope for forgiveness and that God will
simply forgive them. The same as the Muslim, Judaic and the Natural human instinct.
You talked about Jews having to look forward etc. Do the Jews say this?, no absolutely not. Remember the Jewish OT is
different to the christian OT. It is an eastern book that Christians try to read through Greko Roman eyes. It doesn't
work, if you want to know what the OT says and what the Jews believed, you should ask them, not throw a belief on
them, which isn't proved. All this about looking forward, you understand is just a theory developed by a Theologist
somewhere, its not in the bible, Christians later try to adapt and apply meanings for these to the bible
You talked about dead bodies raising, themselves, I'm curious, how many gospel writers, wrote about this. I mean after all, the dead rising would be a monumental feat, wouldn't you expect all of them to capture this vital information or mention it, yet they all never forgot to mention Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey?
In Islam, contrary to popular belief Salvation is guaranteed for every believer.
Delete"Allah has promised to the believers -men and women, - Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever"
Surah 9:72
"Verily, Allah never breaks His Promise"
Surah 3:9
"No one of you will enter Paradise by his deeds alone." They asked, "Not even me, unless Allah covers me with His Grace and Mercy. (Muslim, 4/2170, hadith no. 2816)
But a Muslim considers it insolent and arrogant to assume, you are saved. A muslim will answer if you ask him if you are going to paradise, "If Allah Wills". Of course he believes he is as long as he keeps his faith in Allah and remains a muslim, but no one knows of what will happen tomorrow except Allah, no matter how much we wish otherwise. Works show ones sincerity and strengthen ones faith, don't forget a Muslim can have all sins forgiven at any time, through repenting at any time, a quite word in his heart to his Lord. Not through a fullfillment of a self imposed rule where God must become human to die for our sins.
I'm afraid what you have said, doesn't reconcile the NT, OT and what James has said. That is still a problem.
You said, in response to me saying wouldn't you love, the history of the Quran instead of the one you have:
"I love the Bible I have. It was written over a period of more than 1500 years by over 40 men inspired by the Holy Spirit!".
With all due respect Cherel and I do mean that, why would you loving your bible be acceptable to me or anybody else, if you love it on faith alone. The fact 40 people wrote it with differing accounts, doesn't make it verifiable but weakens its position. I realise the bible speaks out to you, just as the Quran speaks out to me, but quotes from the bible do not speak out to me or others. I would like hard facts/reasons why the overwhelming doubt in its history should be ignored by myself and others?
You say, the "bible is undeniably the authentic word of God", I ask you how? You say there are subtle variations in punctuation marks and spellings and has been translated into many version today. Cherel, you said in your blog that your and "avid Bible scholar for many years", so you should know that translations are not the same as versions and there are not subtle spelling mistakes but chunks and chunks of it.
Your point about abrogation, doesn't stand, its another misconception that verses have been abrogated and is often thrown at Muslims. Abrogation is where one verse has been canceled for another, this does not occur in the Quran, both verses still stand. For example, in the Quran it is written that in drink there is some good but it is bad, then later it commands Muslims to not drink at all. You see both verses still stand. Abrogation in the Quran is a myth, much like the 72 virgins that people perpetuate. Its everything that is sold in anti Islamic sites.
DeleteReal abrogation is where Christians claim the whole old testament has been abrogated by the New Testament.
This is exactly my point, you say that the message is not attractive to you, why is that even an issue, shouldn't you be searching for the truth, not what is attractive to you. Each individual has his own opinions and it is nay impossible they all match. Surely truth is what we should be looking for, is it not, no matter how bitter, and the Quran is very sweet, if you open your heart and read it like you would the bible.
In addition, you have written much earlier that Muslims view Christianity as a western religion and so don't want to consider it. This is not only inaccurate but is against rationale. Let me explain, Christianity is not a western religion, it is an eastern religion. Jesus was a Semitic, i.e. brown skinned Arab looking Jew. Two races are considered Semitic, those are the Arabs and the Jews, not the Caucasian Jews of Israel that was created in the 1940s but the Arab Jews. Israel did not exist at the time of Jesus, it was Palestine and Jesus was a Palestinian. An Arab country. There are many Christians living in eastern lands. Christians often reject Muhammad because he was Semitic, forgetting that Jesus was too. Not a blond haired blue eyed Caucasian man. All the prophets were Semitic. Muslims know this, westerners ignore it.
The Quran you say is not chronological, that's because its not a history book, its not there to give us historical facts from the beginning to the end. Its there to give us Guidance and a moral code from the beginning to the end which it goes through in a systematic fashion, it uses historical facts and stories and science to emphasize morality, worship and understanding God, not the other way round, which is what you get in the bible. God doesn't talk like man.
But Cherel, you should know, what really confuses me is the trinity, but what confuses me further is that when it suits a Christian they refer to Jesus as a God, and other times as a man. The trinitarian concept was first developed by a man called Tertoulian, you should look him up.
Heres a chronology for you to look at:
Jesus preached as a man.
Paul made him an agent of God, i.e. God created Jesus and Jesus created everything else.
In the Council of Nicea 3 and a half hundred years later, Jesus was made into a God, by the Pagan Constantine.
Again a few centuries later, tertoulian proposed the Trinity and gradually we end up with it as it is today. A concept no one can explain.
Good Night, I really got to get some sleep.
If its okay with you, I think we should tackle one point at a time, otherwise we will end up writing encyclopedias.
P.s its me Rehan
DeleteHi Rehan, Omnipresence of Allah and Yahweh
DeleteYou made some very interesting points in your 6 comments. I will try to respond by topic.
I was not speaking of God being in everything as pantheism teaches. I was speaking of Him being everywhere present. He could not logically be all-knowing without being everywhere present.
This is the verse indicating the Omnipresence of Allah:
وَلِلَّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ ۚ فَأَيْنَمَا تُوَلُّوا فَثَمَّ وَجْهُ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ
[2:115] To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
And this is the passage concerning Yahweh.
Psalm 139:7-12 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
How do you understand these passages?
Allah less relational than Yahweh?
DeleteI've only read the Quran twice but I find Allah presented as less relational than Yahweh for many reasons. The Quran presents Allah as transcendent and unknowable. He requires unquestioned submission from his followers and only loves based on obedience. The passages in the Quran that deal with paradise do not mention spending time with him.
Yahweh created mankind for relationship with Him. He personally formed Adam and Eve and then He visited them daily in the garden of Eden before they sinned.
Following their sin He pronounced judgement on the serpent and promised them a redeemer.(Genesis 3:15)
He slew animals to make them clothes (a covering required because of their sin). That laid the foundation for showing them that sin leads to blood sacrifice.
Yahweh dealt personally with Cain for killing Abel. He walked with Enoch and them took him to heaven while he was still alive. He spoke with Noah about the flood. He called Abraham to leave an idolatrous background. I could go on and on. The Bible is all about God's desire for relationship with people.
Jesus took on a body not just to die for our sins but so He can live with mankind for all eternity. He is all about relationship with His people.
The Bible says God is Love. It is replete with verses in the Old and New Testaments that proclaim His love for mankind. He loves both saints and sinners. He desires that all people be saved. Jesus gave His life because He loves us. John says, "We love Him because He first loved us." Again, I could go on and on about God's love for us.
Allah loves not sinners. He only "loves" those who love and obey him first.
Muslims use reason and logic.
DeleteYou questioned why Christians don't easily accept that Muslims choose the Quran over the Bible by using reason and logic.
I would imagine Christians have a hard time believing a lot of Muslims even have a choice. Since the Quran says it is wrong for Muslims to befriend or listen to non-Muslims and it also says that Muslims who leave Islam should be slain, it's hard to believe Muslims have the chance to make a reasonable, logical decision about the Bible vs the Quran. Do most Muslims even have access to the Bible? Saudi Arabia won't let Bibles in the country.
Muslims viewed as War Mongers
You said you don't understand why Muslims are viewed as war mongers. Do you follow the internet news? Muslims are in the news almost every day blowing people up somewhere in the world. They are regularly fighting each other in the Middle East and killing Christians in Egypt, Libya, Nigeria, Sudan, Thailand, Bangladesh, India, etc.
The USA has intervened many times to try to stop the slaughter of Muslims by Muslims. We end up being reviled and I personally wish we would stay out of their conflicts. We lose lives and money and gain nothing-- not even peace for Muslim nations.
Please don't misunderstand me, I care about the Muslims being killed but I don't think we can fix the internal problems of Muslim nations because they are based on a violent belief system.
I'll start with Paul and Jesus tomorrow.
Hi Cherel,
DeleteHope your in good health, and doing well.
PART 1 - THE BOOKS OF GOD
Before I answer some of your points, i'd like to discuss something you touched on earlier when you said, Jesus never brought a book.
If you ask a Muslim what is the Quran, he will point you to a paper based book, as he may not want to explain further or may not know. A knowledgeable Muslim will tell you that the paper based book is not the Quran, it is the actual speech of the words that are the Quran, i.e. when it is being recited. The paper based book is simply the medium that carries those words. Similarly, if a Muslim memorizes the Quran, he now has the Quran in his head and so he is now the medium, but he is not the Quran. The written words are not the actual words, it is the spoken word, it is the message. The written form helps us record the message. It is the actual message that is referred to as the book, a message from Allah to his Prophet Muhammed(pbuh).
It is this thinking that has maintained the words of the Quran. In addition, the Quran has always been in the hands of the people. The Torah was kept hidden and was only recited in the temple in Palestine by the Rabbis, for a couple thousand of years, no body outside the temple, saw or heard it.
Similarly, the message given to Moses (pbuh) was the Torah (Torath)The message given to Prophet David (pbuh) was the Psalms (zaboor). Jesus was also given a book/message which he gave to his followers. The bible is replete with Jesus going to a particular place and preaching the gospel. That was his message to the people from God, that was his book. The Muslims refer to this as the Injeel. Often christians assume when Muslims are talking about the Injeel they are referring to the Bible, but the bible is a collection of books from other authors, prophets, historians etc. The word bible is taken from the word Biblios and means simply a collection of books.
When Muslims say the Gospel/Injeel has been changed, they mean Jesus's message has been changed to what we have as the bible. The fact the bible has been changed is documented in the bible itself.
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
Jeremiah 8:8.
The Torah means 'the law'!
Five times a day Muslims stand in prayer, shoulder to shoulder, black next to white, rich next to poor. One of the main purposes for this was to bring equality. When the Muslim wishes to hear speak to Allah, he speaks to him directly, no mediator, no song and dance. He simply talks to Allah knowing he can hear him, when he wishes to hear the words of Allah, he listens or reads the Quran. A living, lasting relationship in this life, who needs to wait for the next. Tell me, where can you go to hear God talking to you.
For a Muslim others have a right on you, your parents have a right on you, that you will take care of them in their old age. Your wife, children and neighbors too, but also God has a right on you as your Lord and Cherisher and all these have to be balanced. A Muslim doesn't spend his whole day in prayer, because he must live this life and balance his responsibilities, between all. Worship is mixed in throughout a day, as well as work, as well as spending time with the family, etc.
Rehan
PART 2 - OMNIPRESENT
DeleteCherel, before looking at scripture, nature and the universe and God must be looked at through logic. As logic, science etc, are what God has given us to understand him and the world.
My criticism with the Christian viewpoint, is often that the viewpoint given is never really fully thought out and looked at in detail. For example, if Jesus was God and man, then did he cut his nails, cut his hair. Then were those bits that were cut off, God too. Did he go to the bathroom.
Similar to this is the omnipresent discussion, you said God is not in everything but is everywhere. Whats really the difference, if God is everywhere he has to be everywhere. Is he with you right now? Is he with me? Would you say his in the next room to you, or behind a rock, or what about the bathroom next to you. Is he in every part of the room, including where you may keep your personal items, does he maintain a distance, or his he next to every atom of the universe?
Again, I say to you God is not omnipresent and neither do our scriptures preach this. The problem again is that you are again viewing an Eastern book through Western though. Think about this, if i'm in a room, next to you, can I say i'm with you? What if the room is 10Km long and I keep taking a step back, at what point will you say i'm no longer with you?
It will be at the point, you can't hear me, see me or i can't exert any influence on you. But God will never be at that point, because he is All Seeing, All Hearing, hence he is with you in sight and hearing and knows everything, but he is not literally or physically there. You said God needs to be everywhere to be all knowing, this is flawed logic and assumes God sees like we do, hears like we do. Tell me does God need light to see? Does God need air molecules to hear? Can God not see around corners and does God need a retina and Cornea, to see and a brain to understand those images? Of course not, God Sees but does not see like we do. We can understand sight, and hence we have been made in his image, we can understand what all powerful is, though we cannot imagine it.
Now you made some references to scripture. Cherel, I have no idea which translation of the Quran you have been reading. I have looked at the top five translations of the Quran and have not come up with the translation you quoted. Remember, alot of sites misquote, and there are many non muslims who translate the Quran and change its meanings. I suggest you stick to the top five most respected translators.
Rehan
PART 3 - OMNIPRESENT CONTINUED
DeleteI'm a student of Arabic Grammar too, so i can go back to the Arabic and check the meanings the following is a more accurate rendering of the translation.
To Allah belongs the East and the West; whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's countenance. For Allah is All-Embracing All-Knowing.
**Yusuf Ali**
If you need to quote the Quran or read a more accurate translation, you can read it at www.Quranexplorer.com, where the top five translations are listed.
The idea of God's omnipresence is in some church tradition is from Greek philosophy through Augustine and Aquinas. Psalms are poetic in nature and are therefore subject to poetic license and not necessarily doctrinally sound. First, when Scripture speaks of God as omnipresent or present everywhere (Psalm 139), it is not communicating that he is physically distributed throughout the universe, but that he is simultaneously there in knowledge, sight, sound etc. i.e his relationship, not his physicality.
In Psalms, David is looking for a place to hide, but he can't find it, because God can see him wherever he may go. The bible is replete with passages that God is in heaven, again and again, even the Lords Prayer, "My father that art in heaven".
Ps. 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
Also, dont' forget, if Jesus ascended, then whom did he ascend to if God is everywhere. Although strictly speaking you say Jesus was God and so either that part of God that was Jesus stopped being everywhere or if he was everywhere, then how could he ascend. There are too many problems with Jesus is God, scenario, especially when Jesus never once said he was God, throughout the bible.
Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven, will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake?} [Quran 67:16]
I'll reply regarding the rest tomorrow. I know when i'm too tiered to write, when i spell a word wrong and i can't be bothered to correct it. Good night.
Rehan
Part 1
DeleteGreetings again, Rehan. It sounds like you may be overworking yourself. :-)
I was planning to finish answering your other comments today but since I received these new comments, I'll proceed from here for now.
I'm very impressed with your knowledge. Are you an Imam?
If human knowledge was sufficient to understand the truth about God, you would certainly be more than able.
However, throughout the Bible, God tells us His thoughts are not like ours. Human wisdom, logic, and knowledge are unable to grasp the truth of the gospel because God designed it that way. As Jesus said, "New wine must be put in new bottles" or it will burst the vessel and both will be lost. Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again."
Paul put it this way in 1 Corinthians 17-24 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
You question the need for the cross and you question the divinity of Jesus because you are looking through the eyes of the flesh. No matter what I share with you, you will not believe until you desire truth enough to ask God to reveal the truth to you personally.
You asked, "Where can you go to hear God talking to you?" I respond, He speaks to me by His Spirit in my heart and He speaks to me through His Word.
I know the Bible is God's Word because He has told us "the end from the beginning" and never been wrong. Hundreds of prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled and verified. No other book in the world compares to the Holy Bible.
I also know the Bible is God's Word because He is always faithful to fulfill the promises He speaks to my heart from His Word.
When I suffered kidney failure He spoke to me through the Book of Judges (6:23) as I was reading about Gideon. He said, "Peace be unto you. Do not fear. You will not die."
I was deathly ill. My kidney function dropped to 11%. The doctors could not cure me. They wanted me to go on dialysis. But, I had God's promise so I refused dialysis and left the hospital with my failing kidneys. They expected me to return by the next week to begin treatment but Jesus intervened for me. From the time I left the hospital my kidneys began to improve and returned back to the normal range over time.
I have no problem understanding how Jesus could teach Paul what he needed to know whether in a vision or a personal visit, or a revelation through the Holy Spirit. Jesus is alive and He speaks to His people even today.
Part 2 Jesus as God and Man
DeleteYou challenged my assertion that the Jews looked forward to salvation through Jesus and you said Jesus never claimed to be God.
May I remind you of the "binding of Isaac" passage in the Bible. As they neared the site for the sacrifice, Isaac said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" (Gen 22:6–7).
Abraham, in inspired faith, responded, "'God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.'
As Abraham raised the knife to kill Isaac, trusting that God would raise him from the dead if he died, the Angel of the Lord (which always refers to the preincarnate appearance of Jesus) stopped Abraham from killing Isaac and provided a ram caught in a thicket.
Abraham called the place, Yahweh–jireh. It means, Yahweh sees and provides. That mountain (later known as Golgotha)became a testimony. Every time someone passed by it he said, "In the mount of the LORD it will be seen and provided."
Jesus told the Jews, "Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." John 8:56
They didn't believe He could have seen Abraham and argued that Jesus wasn't even 50 years old.
Jesus answered, "The truth is, before Abraham was, I AM." v58 Then they wanted to stone Him because they knew He was claiming to be God. I AM was the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. (Exodus 3)
In Mark 2:1-12, Jesus forgave a man's sins and healed his body to prove He had the power of God to forgive sins.
During His trial account shared in Matthew, Mark and Luke, the chief priests told Jesus, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus answered, "I AM." They called for Him to be crucified because they said He claimed to be God.
There are many other passages I could share which reveal the divinity of Jesus. He clearly claimed to be God and I believe Him!
John 1:1-18 excerpts
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men... That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
ANY ONE WHO DENIES THE DIETY OF JESUS CHRIST MUST ALSO DENY THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE.
I'll close this comment with another clear statement of Jesus. John 8:23-24
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Hi Cherel, you miss me?
DeleteIts not that i'm overworking myself, its because i always end up thinking its a bright idea to start replying at midnight and its only in the morning when i wake up for work that i realize it really wasn't a great idea.
PART 1 - TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH
No i'm not an Imam, not even close, i'm an IT consultant/architect. I consider myself a student of knowledge and believe no matter how much is gained, one is always a student. However, its far easier to learn knowledge when you search for the truth as opposed to learning something for the sake of learning or accepting what others say as the truth. When i read a passage of the bible, I don't look for what others have told me it means, but instead I read what it says and determine if its the truth. I question everything.
Let me give you an example, in the bible it says in regards to when Jesus was asked for a miracle.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Mathew 12:40
Now people read this verse again and again and use it as proof that Jesus was dead and buried in his tomb for 3 days and 3 nights and then he arose alive/resurrected.
But read this verse again, can you see the problem?
You see Cherel, we all get programmed when we are told repeatedly that this is what something means, that whenever we read it, we always read it as such. Its difficult to break out of it. We all assume that we look at the world from a unique angle that nobody else does and that we "get it". To truly get it, you have to throw prejudices aside and not take what others have told you what Jesus said, but actually look at what he said.
In fact a few years ago, I wasn't even interested in religion, i studied the bible as my first book just to see what it says, looking for truth, i read the hindu scriptures, the sikh scriptures, zoroastrianism, buddhism, taoism and others. You see to judge a religion, you don't look at the people, because alot of people within that religion don't necessarily follow it, to judge a religion, you study their scripture and see what it says, so thats what i did i studied scripture.
Have you discovered the problem with that verse yet? You see if you read the book of Jonah within the bible, you find that Jonah was thrown off a ship, when he was thrown off, he was ALIVE. He then stayed in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights, did he die? No, he was ALIVE! He was then spat out, was he dead? No he was ALIVE. The miracle here was that he was ALIVE when you would have expected him to die. That was his miracle!
SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH CONTINUED
DeleteJesus said:
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Mathew 12:40
So I'm asking you was Jesus alive or dead? You will say dead, but that then wasn't the miracle of Jonah. You see whenever i study something, i look at what that thing means, not what others tell me it means, i look at it in detail.
So now you may say that, the miraculous factor isn't whether he was dead/alive, it is the time factor, the 3 days and 3 nights, but there is nothing miraculous about a time factor. But even then if you analyze that. Jesus was buried on Friday and arose on Sunday morning. Friday night (1) Saturday Morning (1) Saturday Night (2). Thats 2 nights and 1 day. You see it doesn't add up.
You see we all have prejudices and after your read of the Quran, your feedback was exactly the same as what anti islamic sites say, is that because these prejudices were built in before you read the Quran, i wonder.
Now a problem I have with what many Christians preach is, the fact that they apply meanings to verses that aren't there and use them as proof, why can't the verse simply mean what it says? Now, if there was a clear explicit text that said, Jesus was God and then meanings from allegorical verses were taken i would say fine, but when there isn't a single unequivocal statement in the bible where jesus says something along the lines of "I am god" or "worship me", you can't take allegorical or unclear verses to derive that meaning.
I know your thinking, "but he did", i'll get to that later if i have time or tmw.
You see if what you say is true then Jesus contradicted or brought a different message to the one preached in the old testament. If he was to do that, then he needs to say it, not expect us to work it out. Scripture should be clear. Christians often make parables out of clear text that are not parables. But i will discuss this later when i look at the verses you quoted me and when i get on the topic of whether Jesus said he was God.
For now my point is always search for the truth, no matter how bitter or sweet it is. Everything, can be rationalized and some kind of weird logic applied to justify it. In that respect, no religion can be proven wrong, because on faith alone all religions are right and there is no point even having a discussion. That's why i always attempt to use logic before even discussing or looking at scripture.
Rehan
Hi Rehan,
DeleteGood to hear from you. I was wondering what happened to you but then again we all have lives and these kinds of exchanges take a lot of time. Your dedication to writing is commendable.
I can see, again, from all you've written that you are earnest about truth. We have simply come to differing conclusions, and yes, mine is based on faith. But, it is not blind faith. God's Word is proven throughout history and in my own life.
I read and consider what you share, of course. I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it and don't quite know what to make of some of it. But, hate isn't in my heart or vocabulary so no worries there.
Your thoughts about Jonah were interesting. Jesus said,
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was as good as dead. If God hadn't delivered him he would not have survived but Jesus didn't discuss that, He merely said He would be buried for 3 days and nights. His resurrection was the BIG DEAL! It was the SIGN!
Given the fact that the church world celebrates Good Friday, the 72 hours is difficult to find, but I would imagine that originated with the Catholic Church and they are wrong in many ways. I start by taking Jesus at His Word! He knew what was going to happen to Him. He didn't lie. Man gets things wrong, not God. As God said to Job, "Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"(40:8) And Romans 3:4 says, "Let God be true and every man a liar." We may be missing some facts, but they are out there to be found!
The research I've read says Jesus was actually crucified and buried before 6 pm on a Jewish calendar Wednesday, Nisan 13 which was a preparation day for a "High Sabbath" Festival known as the Passover on Thursday, Nisan 14. (The Jewish day began at 6:00 pm.) Therefore the Passover Sabbath began on Wednesday after 6:00 PM (which would actually be Thursday in the Julian calendar.) The women bought the spices on Friday, rested on their normal Saturday Sabbath and went on Sunday morning after 6:00 am and found the Lord was resurrected. This series of events is in accord with Jesus' statements in Matthew 12:38-40. Jesus was in the grave three full days and three nights. Any other view violates the biblical account and the historical facts. (Grady Daniel/Cooper Abrams)
This makes sense to me because I am a believer. I believe God's Word with or without proof and love it when facts surface that confirm what I already believe by faith.
Hi Cherel,
DeleteEverybody is entitled to an opinion, the only thing we can hope for is that the counter position is at least considered before being dismissed.
PART 1 - FITRAH
However, let me make about about logic / science first.
Logic / Science cannot be used exclusively to find your religion, but they can be used to determine your journey. For example, if we used Logic and look at the Causality Theory, which very logically states everything must have a cause. If thats the case then the universe, has a cause, which we would determine as God, but then God must also have a cause, and what created God must have a cause and so on.
In Islam 'Fitrah' is a natural instinct God has placed in man to recognise that God exists and some other attributes of God. For example, there is a natural instinct in man, to recognize there is a God, for example all tribes, groups always believe in God, children left on an island with no outside contact will always believe in God. There is also a natural instinct for man to always look to the heavens, when calling on God. Even Pantheistic religions which believe God is in every thing, always look towards the heavens when they pray, or raise their hands to it. Why don't they look within themselves?
This in Islam is known as Fitrah, similarly logic is a part of our Fitrah, as is our consciousness, which help us recognize God. Now logically if there were an infinite number of causes before God is created then God could never have been created, i.e. we would never have got to the point where God created us. Imagine if the universe went on forever, would we ever get to the end, no because it goes on forever, similarly if the start was infinite we would never reach this point.
The fact we have reached this point and we exist, is proof that one of those causes, had to be eternal. This is what logic says. It also says that that thing which was infinite/eternal, was not created so no aspect of what it created could be in it, i.e. time / space are created things, so time / space cannot be a part of God. This is the only logical model of the universe (can you see, what problem jesus being part of creation causes).
So logic proves there is a god, there are other logics that can be used, but this will serve as the example. But we have proved there is a God, but that doesn't prove God communicated with us. That could be a God that has had no relation or wish to communicate to us. So if God has communicated with us, then its the scriptures which must be analyzed to see if God has actually communicated it to us. But Fitrah doesn't just include logic, it includes our natural tendencies, our heart our emotions, intellect, everything which God has given us to help us recognize him.
But my point is simply this, logic is a part of our nature and God must be recognizable to our natures. I know you wont disagree with that, so the head and heart must be used in deciphering scripture.
Hi Rehan,
DeleteMy delayed response is partly due to the many topics you have addressed which I haven't had a chance to respond to. It's hard to know where to start but I guess I'll just have to deal lightly with a few of them.
First, I agree with your final comment. God created us with heads and hearts which He expects us to use in our quest to know Him. And, believing in God is logical.
As for propaganda, it started with Satan in Eden. And he's been using people to twist the facts ever since. I do not rely on the USA mainstream media for truth. They are owned and/or intimidated by the worldly powers that be, which are owned and/or intimidated by spiritual forces of wickedness in high places. Truth is not found in them.
I believe the USA has accomplished much good in the world and most of our troops go where they are sent with good intentions. But, the common man has always been a pawn in the hands of the powerful, and the powerful don't always have good intentions. Many Americans, including myself, didn't think it was a good idea to go to war to fight terrorists following 9/11. Why not just hunt down those directly involved? And, I don't believe the US military should have been involved in the Arab Spring debacle at all. (Islamic nations do not need or appreciate our help.) But, non-governmental individuals don't get to call the shots.
I was always opposed to the Patriot Act and Homeland Security and the TSA-- as are many other patriotic Americans. I didn't find your comments shocking.
I do disagree with some of your assertions. The KKK was fairly short lived and never had more than 40,000 members. Most Americans detested its activities. Hitler used the church for his own purposes and then slaughtered around 4 million Christians along with 6 million Jews. Hitler was not a Christian. When was he saved? Tell me some Christian principles he lived by. His power came from the dark side. Same thing with Breivik. He doesn't claim to be a Christian, and if he did claim to, his actions violated his claims.
Some of the other groups you mentioned do claim Christian associations, but again, actions that are anti-Christian do not represent Christ. And those groups are localized and relatively short lived in history.
Muslim terrorism is not short lived. It has been going on for 1400 years and it does represent Muhammad and the Quran.
Moses never entered the promised land. Joshua led Israel in to fight and destroy the wicked inhabitants of the land that God specifically told them to wipe out. The Jews killed some of the people but never followed through and cleaned them out of the land like they were supposed to. The Jews, because of this failure, were influenced by those very people to practice idolatry and turn away from faithfulness to Yahweh.
If you have a problem with the instructions to clean out the promised land, you are arguing with God, not with Israel. God passed judgement on those people and wanted Israel to be His executioners so they would learn firsthand the penalty of sin and avoid it. Instead, they fell into sin and have paid a great price through history.
But, Jesus is faithful. He is coming again to fulfill His promises to Abraham and his children.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan.
Hi Cherel,
DeleteBeen alittle busy between family and study.
Up until this point, I’ve tried to avoid talk about scripture too much and have concentrated more on logic/reason and natural understanding, hence I have not responded too much to the quotes you have posted or their validity.
I’d like to cover your scriptural evidences now, if I may. I am pretty sure this aspect of it will interest you more, considering your knowledge of biblical scriptures. I look forward to your refutations and where my logic may have escaped me.
PART 1 – DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD.
I asserted that Jesus never claimed he was God nor gave any instruction to worship him. For which you provided some scriptural quotes. I again assert that Jesus never claimed to be God nor gave any instruction to worship him anywhere in the bible from any version in the world. There are certain translations of course, which assert try to assert this, one that springs to mine is the ESV, but I think you will agree although it tries to premote your argumnet, it is not an accurate rendition. For example, the 3 wise kings, in most translations, fell down and paid homage, in the ESV, they fell down and worshipped Jesus.
However, even these translations don’t go as far as claiming Jesus said he was God or said to worship him as far as I’m aware I will use the KJV as much as possible for my quotes as this seems to be the most standard version in my opinion, if you prefer another let me know.
The statement I made was based on the fact that I believe Christians often make parables where parables should not be made, take meanings out of clear cut verses which are not there. I believe that if Jesus changed the OT view (I no u disagree) then a clear unequivocal statement needs to be present to support this. Imagine a book that’s aim is to tell the world that Jesus was God and that he died for our sins, yet Jesus forgot to put this in the book of Jesus (should this not be God) or that he died for our sins, yet he remembered to give us a all his historical facts (won’t discuss what I think are errors). Doesn’t that seem strange? Consider, Greko Roman Gods of the past, zeus, Athena, Aries, etc, to me the idea of Jesus as a God, with the father, holy Ghost and some church denominations have Mary up there too, is very similar, with the father, the same image as Zeus almost, with a pantheon of lesser Gods. Do you honestly feel that no influence was taken from these religions? You must know about easter, Christmas and all the other attributes of Christianity that are based previous pagan/greko roman influences? The point here is that once you have compromised that absolute, that God is one and only one and replaced it with the trinity, then why stop there, why not have a Pantheon or Gods, or ten Gods can call them one.
Is Jesus God - Continued (2)
DeleteSure everyone, wants to elevate those they love to the highest plane. Lovers compare there partners to angels and godessess and sure thinking of Jesus as the son of God may be warm and fuzzy. But this is theology, we search for truth and loving someone is not by elevating them or ignoring there deficiencies, but loving them for who they are. Jesus is elevated enough we don't need to make him part of God.
Consider the following verse:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
[Matthew 7:22-23]
My question to you, why would Jesus say this? He won’t say it to the Muslim, the Hindu or the Buddhist, nor the atheist. He will say it to you (not literally you) the Christian, whom all sins have already been forgiven on faith alone. If I were a Christian I would ask myself why?. Were miracles not done, in his name, is this not proof of how Christian they were? No it seems it isn’t and the reason in my humble opinion is that his gospel or good news was to worship one God, same as what Moses preached, same as what he preached.
When Jesus asked which is the greatest commandment, he reiterated the same exact words of Moses long before him(OT):
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[Mark 12:29]
Not 3 in one or one in three. So Jesus is saying as a christian, this is the greatest thing you can do is to know, that god is one god. That is the basis of your belief, and you can't afford to be so casual about it, just because its attractive to you. You can be a christian and not a follower of Jesus, which is what I see. Notice also how Jesus says, "the lord our God", not your God, but our god i.e. his God too.
My sincere belief, from reading the bible is that Jesus knew the people would elevate him to a God and kept repeatedly telling them, advising them and tried his utmost best to stop it from happening. That was his Greatest Tragedy, he tried to get the people to worship God his God, how more clear can you be than Mark 12:29.
People started worshiping him instead and another (holy ghost) called them not three but one and this strange logic was brought in only to cover the fact Jesus said one. Seriously Cherel, what logic is it that can make grown people believe that 3 is 1 and what language is that says such, for surely its not English and its not basic mathematics.
Is Jesus God Continued (3)
DeleteConsider again:
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
[Matthew 7:22-23]
Devils can also, prophesy, can also do wonderful works and can also cast other devils out. Thats not a sign of righteousness, what devils can't do is call you to the worship of one God!
But consider, the verse just before it to get the context:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
[Matthew 7:21]
Firstly, Doeth, not believith! Secondly, The will of the father means the will of God. Remember when I told you a muslim says, “If Allah Wills”, they try to emulate Jesus and the other prophets in following the will of God, if you asked me whether i will meet you tomorrow, i would say insha Allah showing my intent, not yes, because i could die before then, anything for the future has a response of Insha Allah (i.e. yes, but only if God wills).
However, the thing I would like to take most exception with is rhetoric such as: “ANY ONE WHO DENIES THE DIETY OF JESUS CHRIST MUST ALSO DENY THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE.” I've also heard things like, anybody who denies the diety of Jesus is calling Jesus a liar.
Who said so? Gospel thumpers and evangelical preachers, that’s who. You can’t say stuff like that and look like you have any credibility by trying to block any argument like that close your mind to sill rhetoric, and I know its not your own line, but question it. Why is denying the diety of Christ denying the inspiration of the bible? That’s the same as Americas stance after the attacks, “Your either with us, or against us”, i.e. if you don’t agree with us we are going to attack, invade your country, steal its resources and we saw how great that approach was. If you don't want to deny the bible, thats fine, because i'm telling you, your bible doesn't say what you believe or what you have been told.
Is Jesus God - Continued (5)
DeleteYou say angel of the lord refers to Jesus, I tell you it does not. So we have a disagreement, the logical thing would be to go to the book and see if it says so, oh but look it doesn’t say the angel of the lord is Jesus anywhere in the text. It seems very logical to belief that the angel of the lord refers to an angel that spoke Gods word, gave Moses his message, gave Jesus his message and gave Mary her news of a son. The Jews don’t claim it means jesus, neither does it say it their translations, so why can't angel of the lord, simple just mean angel of the lord, why must you believe what somebody else has told you it means.
Jesus saying, “Before Abraham was I am”. First thing here, and you should accept this Cherel is that “I am” is not the same as “I am what I am”. They are two different statements so the assertion that he used the same words to describe himself is incorrect. In fact, “I am what I am”, wasn’t even really the name, but I won’t go there yet. That’s for the next post, I’ll stick to what you believe and you tell me if I said anything wrong. There are others that describe themselves with “I am” in th bible the same meaning is not taken there. Its only because your preconceived opinion is that he is God, that you take this meaning. He doesn’t say it. Don’t forget the old testament, “I am what I am” is in Hebrew. The NT “I am” is in Greek. Its not the same words. In fact, the most accurately translation is “I have”, not even “I am”. The explanation is long, so won’t go into it, but sufficient to say: eimi means “have” not “am”. For example John 3:28, uses the same word and is translated as ‘have’ not ‘Am’.
Don’t forget in the Christian Catacysm, Jesus is co-eternal, co-power, co-everything including substance/Homoousios. Yet, in verse 29, Jesus says that he only does what pleases GOD Almighty. Or what about verse 50, “I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.”. Why separate himself from god, they are one entity remember, yet here you prefer to think of him as a second entity here and as a God in the last verse, and that really has been my problem all along, Christians often discuss him as a man, when it fits and other times as a God. I mean look at any of the verses, if you switch the names of God and Jesus does it work? Does it work, if God were to say Jesus is Greater than he, just as jesus said God is greater than him, remember they are co-everything, one will, one substance, nice and neat. Often my Christian friends will assert that God is Greater because he created Jesus, it is then that I have to remind them, that the Christian Catacysm does not say this, this was the view Paul propagated, this is not the view after the many councils where jesus is co-everything. If you read the whole context Jesus is repeatedly clarifying his position to God and it is no different to any other messenger or how he has clarified it before.
Hi Rehan,
DeleteI read thru all 10 sections you wrote but I can't respond to all of it at once so I've decided to publish it in sections so I won't fall further behind in responding to your comments than I already am. :-)
Without relisting scriptures I've already cited, I must disagree with you once again concerning the fact that Jesus (Yeshua= Yahweh's salvation) is God.
You noted that He repeatedly called Himself the son of man. That is true because His mission was not to be worshipped but to die for SIN. He downplayed His divinity to fulfill His mission. However, contrary to your statement that He never claimed to be God, He revealed His divinity on numerous occasions to many people and He wasn't speaking to them in parables as He did with the multitudes.
Notable occasions include His confirmation of Peter's declaration, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." He openly told the the woman at the well Who He Is. He scared Pilate by announcing that His Kingdom is not of this world! The Jewish leaders accused Him of blasphemy and called for His death because they said He claimed to be the Son of God. If that was not the case, don't you think He would have spoken up and corrected them for misunderstanding Who He IS?
I could quote many passages but none will convince those who refuse to believe. If you or other readers desire and search for the truth you will find it. "Ask and it will be given unto you. Seek and you will find."
Yeshua is revealed all through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. As He said, He did not come to change the law, He came to fulfill it. And He did.
The Trinity is another subject many people struggle with. We can wrestle with Yahweh's revelation of Who He Is in His Being (Godhead) or we can accept it. The Father spoke from heaven at the baptism of Yeshua ("This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matt 3:17 KJV) and the Holy Spirit descended from heaven and alighted on Yeshua in the form of a dove. Father, Son, Holy Spirit: 3 in One.
The Bible (Old and New Testaments beginning with the Pentateuch and creation) is filled with passages about the Father, the Word and the Spirit.
On the Mount of Transfiguration the Father spoke again saying, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him." (Mark 9:2-13) to confirm Yeshuah's identity and mission.
Many in Christendom place an undue emphasis on questionable celebrations but those holidays do not add to or take away from the Trinity.
The Trinity is eternal. Of course, other religions have corrupted God's true identity by creating a Pantheon of God's or by denying the Trinitarian nature of God. Satan doesn't care which heresy people follow just so they follow one of them.
Yeshua(Jesus) said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." This is the bottom line.
I'll continue with a response to your next comment soon.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan.
Part 2 response
DeleteRehan, Jesus has no deficiencies. No other man in history can say that. Even Islam's Prophet Mohammad said he had to repent many times every day. Yet, both the Bible and the Quran say Yeshua Jesus) is sinless.
He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips. 1 Peter 2:22
For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5. 21
You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
"I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow on thee a faultless son" (Surah 19.19). (totally without sin)
The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived Yeshua (Jesus), the Holy Son of God. He had no earthly father to implant in Him the sin nature of Adam so He was born sinless and remained so throughout His life which is why He could choose to die in our place. As a sinless man He could die for one man. As God, He covered every man's sin! What other man can you turn to who is without sin? Only God is sinless!
As for 3 in 1. The concept is not strange at all. We were created in God's image as body, soul and spirit. 3 in 1! An egg has a shell, white and yolk. 3 in 1! The universe is made of time, matter and energy. 3 in 1! One family may consist of 3 members and still be one family. Why is it so hard to believe the Godhead includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as ONE GOD! Yeshua (Jesus) said, "I and my Father are One!" Same Eternal Substance, Nature, Attributes, Will, etc. The 3 agree as ONE! How can God in Himself be LOVE without inner communion and relationship?
Jesus allowed sincere individuals to worship Him but He did try to keep mobs from worshipping Him and trying to make Him an earthly king because He came to die for SIN.
Part 3 response
Delete"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
[Matthew 7:22-23]
You will notice this passage does not say Yeshua (Jesus) rejected them for doing good works, but for working iniquity. Many, who have never been born again, use the gospel for their own gain. They will be rejected.
You said, "Devils can...cast other devils out." Yeshua disagreed with that statement when they accused Him of casting out devils with Satan's power. He said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Devils don't cast out devils.
You also said, "what devils can't do is call you to the worship of one God!" No, there you are wrong. Devils have been calling people to worship false gods all through history. They don't try to get people to worship the One True God, Yahweh, but they do try to get them to worship a false god.
You quoted, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
[Matthew 7:21] And you emphasized doing over believing.
But, what did Yeshua mean by doing His Father's will. In John 6:28-29, the Bible tells us. "Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus (Yeshua) answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." KJV
You said, "...the thing I would like to take most exception with is rhetoric such as: “ANY ONE WHO DENIES THE DIETY OF JESUS CHRIST MUST ALSO DENY THE INSPIRATION OF THE BIBLE.”
Rhetoric is speech used "for effect or style rather than content or meaning." I assure you my statement was based on content and meaning. The Bible clearly teaches the divine nature of Yeshua (Jesus). If the Bible is the inspired Word of God, then Yeshua is God's "only begotten Son full of grace and truth." If Yeshua is not God's Son, the Bible cannot be the inspired Word of God because God does not lie or make mistakes. I don't know why you take exception to that statement. I'm not into rhetoric. I'm discussing the truth of God's Word.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan. Lord willing, I will continue soon.
Response to portions of your 4th comment
DeleteRehan, I want to respond to some of your comments about physical healing. You said, "Miracles or faith healing, is not a sign of faith..." I never made that claim. My experience with healing has always been based on receiving a word from God. The Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing...the Word of God." When I receive a Word from God, I believe it and He fulfills it. It's not about me. It's about God being faithful to His Word.
You said, "Don’t forget, according to the Bible, if you were a true believer you should be able to drink poison... you should also be able to speak foreign tongues and make mountains move. Yet when someone does speak a foreign tongues its always put down to demon possession, I'm yet to see someone move a brick let alone a mountain."
I find your interpretation of scripture lacking. Jesus says in Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover," (Mark 16:17-18).
Demons: The apostles and other disciples and Christian through the ages have engaged in casting out demons.
Tongues: On the Day of Pentecost 120 disciples of Jesus who were gathered in the Upper Room awaiting the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit to birth the church and empower believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with new tongues. This empowerment has continued in various groups of Christians throughout history. I grew up in pentecostal churches and have witnessed the operation of the gift of new tongues throughout my life. Gifts of the Spirit vary according to God's will so that not everyone speaks in tongues, but many do.
Serpents: Acts 28:4-6 A deadly serpent bit into the Apostle Paul's hand and he shook it off into a fire. The islanders first thought he would die and later thought he was a god because it didn't harm him. Some believers have taken up snake handling to prove their faith but I believe what happened to Paul was what Jesus was predicting.
Poison: Christians have survived drinking poison when someone tried to kill them.
Healing: Many have been healed in the name of Jesus. I've seen and experienced this throughout my life as well.
My point is, Jesus never said all Christians would do all these things. He simply said these types of "signs" would follow believers and indeed they have and will continue to do so.
You said, "When the antichrist comes are you telling me he won't have the power of miracles, of course he will, saints in Pakistan and the Godmen of India all claim miracles and have an innumerable number of followers."
2 Thess 2:9-10 "The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders,and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them."
I reccomend God's Word, The Holy Bible to you and to all our readers.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan.
Is Jesus God - Continued (5+)
DeleteRehan says, "You say angel of the lord refers to Jesus, I tell you it does not. So we have a disagreement, the logical thing would be to go to the book and see if it says so, oh but look it doesn’t say the angel of the lord is Jesus anywhere in the text."
The angel of the LORD is referred to many times in the Old Testament. Other angels are simply called angels. Michael and Gabriel are called by name. The angel of the LORD is unique. HE does not come with a message from God. HE delivers HIS messages as GOD. HE accurately foretells the future which only GOD can do. HE did this in Genesis when HE announced the future birth of Ishmael, calling him by name and later when HE assured Hagar that Ishmael would be a powerful prince and even described his future life and temperament to her. (Hagar spoke of HIM as GOD!) HE announced the future name and life calling of Samson to Manoah's wife in the book of Judges and HE received worship from Manoah and his wife. No angel would do that! And, Manoah thought he would die because He had seen GOD!
I could give you other examples but these reveal the truth. And, since Y'shua (Jesus) is the "fullness of the Godhead bodily," all appearances of GOD in the flesh are Y'shua.
Rehan, your next point was to deny the significance of Jesus referring to Himself as "I AM". You said, "I AM" is not the same as "I AM THAT I AM" and that "I AM" isn't GOD's name anyway.
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you." Exo 3:14
Notice that "I AM" is the name Moses was instructed to use. The phrase carried the meaning of God's sacred name YHWH. This is made clear in this next passage.
God also said to Moses, "I am YHWH. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them. Exo 6:2-3
Jesus (Y'shua) referred to Himself many times as "I AM."
Foe example, He said, "I AM the Bread of Life." "I AM the Good Shepherd." (In another place He said, "No one is good but God." Also, "I AM the Door." And, "I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END." ETC. (Who, but GOD, could make such a statement?)
continued
Rehan, let me respond to your concerns about the term "Son of Man." This was a term used by the Jews to refer to their awaited Messiah.
DeleteMark 14:61b-62 Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
(Notice how Jesus calls Himself "the Son of Man" while referring to Himself as the Christ!)
"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Luke 22:66-70 At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them.
"If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us."
Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Daniel 7:13-14 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this passage in Daniel, a "son of man" is given eternal authority over all peoples. They will worship HIM!
Many today are in denial about the diety of Y'shua, God's only Son and this denial is a choice not based on the clear teachings of God's Holy Word.
I pray that you, Rehan, and all other readers of these comments who are searching for truth will see the truth while you still have the chance. Y'shua loves you!
Grace and peace to you.
Hello Cherel, remember me........... Its your old pal Rehan.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little disappointed you didn't put up everything 4m my posts or answered the questions i asked.
Anyway, for this new spell of discussion. I think we should keep it one thing at a time. Not diverging so i won't comment on anything thats not the subject matter. Let keep it simple.
So my question is: What does BEGOTTEN mean. as in the begotten son of God?
Hi, Rehan.
ReplyDeleteI still have your other comments. As you have noted, they covered too many topics to be answered concisely. Simple is better.
As for the meaning of begotten. I'm sure you know the term refers to the "fathering" of children in a biological sense. Adam begat Cain and Abel, etc. So, they were his begotten sons, and many followed.
As for Jesus, he had no earthly father but was often referred to as the Son of Man (as in mankind) because he had a human mother.
Jesus is never simply called "the begotten Son of God". He is always called the "only begotten Son of God" because He is indeed Unique! One of a kind. Angels and humans are called sons of God because God created them but only Jesus proceeds forth from the Heavenly Father as His Eternally Existing Only Begotten Son.
In the Bethlehem prophecy foretelling His birth in Micah 5:2, the scriptures say His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." {We know He physically visited with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and walked with Enoch, instructed Noah, and spoke with Abraham, Hagar, Moses, Joshua, Manoah's wife, etc.}
The following verses reveal the truth I'm sharing with you. Please meditate on their clear meaning.
I John 4:9: "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him."
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
These verses say God the Father "sent" Jesus to us and "gave" Jesus to save us from our sins. They never say God created Jesus. He existed eternally with His Father as many verses tell us. Jesus, as God, created all things that are in heaven and earth! In the book of Isaiah, Jesus is called Wonderful (full of wonders!), Counselor (full of wisdom), Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. In the book of Revelation He declares Himself to be the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end!
I hope this answers your question and helps any readers who may be following this conversation because knowing Who Jesus is (God in Flesh)and accepting Him as Lord and Savior is the only way to be gain eternal life.
"He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).
Grace and Peace to you and yours.
ReplyDeleteHi Cherel,
So this is what i'm understanding to summarise your post.
1. Begotten means fathering in a biological way.
2. Jesus was the only(i.e unique) begotten son.
4. Meaning Jesus the the only begotten son, i.e. the only son of God that was begotten in a biological way.
5. The rest of us are sons of god (well the good ones) in a non biological way.
6. The various verses in regards to Jesus's position.
So three questions pop to my mind instantly:
1) is my understanding correct here, that Jesus is the only son that was actually begotten, i.e. fathered biologically by God.
2) If Jesus existed co-existed eternally with the father and is co-equal in power etc, what makes him a son?
3) If Jesus created everthing as the agent of the Father, did he also create Mary, his mother?
But putting that aside for a moment Cherel.
I'd like to invite you to Islam...........NAY SHOCK THE HORROR.
If you decline, i'd like to know your reasons, what are your questions?
But none of the predjudice stuff.
Something in its theology or why you don't believe Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
Regards,
Rehan
Hi Rehan,
DeleteGood to hear from you again.
All humans are children of Yahweh Elohim, created in His image but not of His "biological substance". Yahweh loves us and desires to restore the relationship with us that was lost when Adam and Eve sinned. That is why He sent His Son (of His biological substance)to save us from our sins.
Yahweh has revealed Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Godhead eternally existing as 3 persons in an intimate personal relationship with one another.
The Trinity is mysterious! His word tells us, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." (Proverbs 25:2) His glorious nature and being are so much higher than ours that we cannot fully understand Him in our present state.
He sent Jesus in a human body, as His Son, to reveal Himself to us in a manner we can relate to. That is why Jesus said, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
Thus, Jesus is revealed from eternity as the "Son" because it was God's eternal plan to send Him into the world in a fleshly body to save us.
Yes, Jesus created everything, including Mary! Your question reminds me of the question Jesus asked the Jewish leaders in
Luke 20:41-44. "But(Jesus)said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “‘The Lord (Yahweh)said to my Lord (Jesus, the Christ), sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’" Jesus was challenging them to consider that the "Son of David Christ" they were looking for had eternal existence! (He existed before his distant ancestor, David, and his mother, Mary!)You might want to consider that, as well.
Given our discussions and all I have shared with you about my belief in the way to gain eternal salvation, I'm sure you do not expect me to embrace Islam. So, what is your motive in asking me to explain my reasons for rejecting Islam?
I believe Jesus is "the way, the truth and the life". I believe He came to earth to save us from our sins and gave us all the information we need to be saved. It is found in His Word, which is the Bible (Old and New Testaments). Jesus forgave my sins and has given me eternal life. I have peace with God and am not looking for another way to be saved. Are you?
My only interest in reading the Koran and many books and some blogs about Islam was to understand what Muslims believe and why they behave the way they do. I have learned a great deal about the teachings of Islam but I find no savior there. I've learned a lot about Muslim history and current events, and I see no blessing in it. It is obvious that Islam does not have the answers. Muslims need peace with God. Jesus wants to save every person from his/her sins and to give them eternal life. I pray that you will come to this understanding and find the peace, joy, love and eternal life He has provided.
Grace and peace to you.
Cherel
I invited you to Islam for two reasons.
DeleteThe first, is so that I when I answer to God, I can say I tried.
The second, is because you have great knowledge of scripture and would be a great asset and bring much good by spreading the message. We are all to die, and I worry about that time coming before you have a chance to accept it.
Muslims are at peace with God because we were foretold that near the end of times we would be seen as the scum of the sea.
Don't forget if you compare, muslim history has never been as bloody as the christian history. If your looking at blessings, see muslim history when it began and took over two empires. The roman and sassanid empire with 20 years and spread accross the globe.
Man i wish I could change the books you read, lolz.
Take care Cherel,
Rehan.
I appreciate your concern for my future and those of other readers, I'm sure. Thank you.
DeleteI cannot, however, agree that Islam is the answer. I'm not sure what books you read but your knowledge of the history of Islam and even Islam's activities in modern times seems to be based on propaganda.
You accuse Christianity of having a more bloody history than Islam without documentation. I would submit to you that during Paul's lifetime early Christians "turned the world upside down" by winning converts through loving evangelism. By way of comparison, Islam didn't even begin to grow under Mohammad's leadership until he turned to the sword. He had to offer his followers the right to plunder and kill the infidels in the name of Allah before they got serious about following him. At his death Islam split into factions and 3 of the first 4 Caliphs were assassinated by fellow Muslims.
You are right that Islam quickly "took over" empires; but again, it was by the sword. It was a matter of converting to Islam or submitting to taxation and humiliation or death. It has been spreading by violent means ever since.
Look at what's happening in Sudan, Nigeria, Thailand, Bangladesh, India, Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc. Christians and other "infidels" are being slaughtered in these and many other countries as we write to each other. Islam is not a religion of peace. It intends to destroy Israel and the USA and to rule the world.
The Crusades (read my blog on that topic) were wars fought primarily to try to rescue Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim control obtained by conquest.
Were the Crusaders Christians? They fought under the auspices of the Catholic Church which became paganized fairly early on so I would say many of the fighters involved were not personally Christians but they were representing the most powerful church of their day so Christianity gets the credit or the blame-- depending on who is doing the judging.
If you are saying modern wars have been instigated by "Christians" you are misinformed. Europe and the USA are not theocracies. We have secular governments and individual Christians have very little influence on gov't policy.
Of all the conflicts you mentioned that the USA has been involved in since WW2, tell me how we were involved for self interest and what we gained from those conflicts. In spite of the trillion dollars we have spent on and in Muslim countries we haven't even been repaid with oil. We buy it-- which keeps their countries afloat economically.
If Muslims would read their Quran and recognize that it says God gave Israel their land, the entire Middle East might settle down a bit-- that is if Sunnis and Shiites could learn to get along.
Believe me, I feel for Muslim people who are denied access to the truth of salvation shared in the Holy Bible. One can see their anger and grief when they are rioting in the streets. No peace.
Before I was born again, I carried a heavy load of guilt. I was raised in church listening to sermons about sin and eternal punishment. I read the Bible for myself and I knew I needed grace, mercy and forgiveness. Even as a child, I knew I could not change myself or pay for my sins. Only Jesus could save me-- and He did!
When I turned to Him in faith and trusted Him to forgive my sin, He lifted the load of guilt and His Holy Spirit filled me with unspeakable joy and profound love. I have never been the same since Jesus delivered me from the bondage of sin.
So, you see, I'm not looking for another savior. As Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68
And YHWH said in the Old Testament, "I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior". Isaiah 43:11
Grace and peace to you, Rehan
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DeleteI think what you posted made a lot of sense. However, consider this, suppose you composed a catchier title?
ReplyDeleteI am not suggesting your information is not solid, but what if you added a post title to maybe get a person's attention? I mean "Non-Muslim's View of Quran vs Bible" is kinda vanilla. You might peek at Yahoo's front page and note how they create news headlines to get viewers to click. You might try adding a video or a pic or two to grab readers interested about everything've got to say. In my opinion, it might make your blog a little bit more interesting.
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Excellent pointers! Did you have a catchy title in mind? So far, I'm drawing a blank.
DeleteIs Islam of interest to you?
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ReplyDeleteHi Cherel its Rehan again, hope everything is good with you down your side of the world.
Ahhhhh, your starting to get hit by spammers, isn't that annoying. Out of curiosity, can you tell me, whether anybody is actually following our discussion by looking at your stats. Just curious.
Also, you have inspired me to create a website of my own, still constructing it at the moment, i'll let you know when its done.
So the discussion.........
Okay you said, all humans are children of yahweh (just how you came up with the name yahweh is another issue).
Humans you say lost the relationship with God (i.e. humans not just with Adam).
Okay i'm willing to concede this point on one condition.
You say he sent his son of his own biological substance.
Okay i'm willing to concede this too, on the same condition.
You say the trinity is mysterious.
Again i'm willing to concede this, on the exact same condition.
The condition is that you show me where it says this in the bible. Simple?
I mean does it say humans and not just Adam lost this relationship with God? Does it say they are made of the same substance or was this just logicasized (not sure thats a word). Does it say the trinity is MEANT to be mysterious.
Again, and again we come across the same issue and thats that concepts are said and introduced that are not in the bible. Layer upon layer, throughout the last 2000 years, with big jumps in councils (e.g. the council of nicea) etc. It seems to me that concepts that are mutually exclusive are bound together by illogical strings to the point where the strings have become core and what the bible says takes second place.
I don't want to begin disecting your quotes like i did before. The discussion gets too long.
John 14:9, read the context.
Existing before David, does not make him God. Having a virgin birth does not make him God. Bringing people back to life and curing the sick does not make him god. Others have done all this before, in the bible. You know this !
These things don't make him God, because these are not exclusive qualities of God. Exclusive qualities are no beginning, no end. Being the greatest of all etc.
You said "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing".
But Cherel "the honour of kings is to search out a matter".
Hi Rehan. PRT 1
DeleteSorry this has taken so long. I was working on a response, lost the notes and had to start over.
I checked my stats. There have been over 1200 visitors to this particular article.
I'm surprised you questioned the name Yahweh. It is the personal Hebrew name of the One True Creator God Who has revealed Himself to mankind in the Holy Bible. It is found in the Hebrew text of the Bible almost 7000 times as the tetragrammaton (Yod Heh Vav Heh). I assume you know Hebrew is written without the vowels. It is transliterated into Roman script as Y H W H. The correct vowels are missing today because Hebrew scribes considered it blasphemous to say the most holy name of God outloud so they have been forgotten. Thus, the original pronunciation has been lost and Yahweh is the closest scholars can get to it.
You asked several questions and challenged me to respond based on what the Bible has to say. You said you have concluded that Biblical doctrines are based more on "illogical" conclusions than on the Bible. I will say that, "Rightly dividing" the Word of God, as we are instructed to do by scripture, calls for rational/logical conclusions.
It requires indepth study and spiritual insight only available to Spirit-filled believers. As Paul said, "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor 2:14NKJV)
The study of Theology has led to the use of extra-Biblical words like Trinity and discussions about the Godhead/Diety sharing the same substance, etc., but all disciplines (Medicine, Geology, Astronomy, etc.) develop words to convey precise ideas about their subject. Surely the study of God's Being and His Special and General Revelation to mankind requires no less.
Now, to answer your questions.
1. Does the Bible say humans and not just Adam lost this relationship with God?
I suggest you read Romans, Chapter 5. It clearly states that Adam's disobedience spread death to all mankind-- which means they lost relationship with God. But, the obedience of the Man/Jesus (capitalized because Jesus is the God/Man), through His death on the cross restored our relationship with God by grace when we receive it through faith.
Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 5:12
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s (Jesus) obedience many will be made righteous. 5:19
so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 5:21
PRT 2
Delete2. Does the Bible say the Father and Jesus are made of the same substance or was this just a "logical conclusion"?
I used the phrase "biological substance" to express their "Oneness" because biological refers to "living matter in all its forms and phenomena."
God The Father is Living Spirit. He is not limited by a physical body. He is the Eternally Existing One. The Bible teaches that Jesus and the Holy Spirit share His Eternally Existing Spiritual Nature.
Jesus, took on human flesh so that “in Him dwells (lives) the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Col.2:9).
Jesus said He and The Father are One. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary at His conception. Father, Son and Holy Spirit agree and cooperate in all things.
"You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though He existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped.... He humbled Himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death... on a cross! ...at the name of Jesus every knee will bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillipians 2:5-11
3. Does the Bible say the trinity is MEANT to be mysterious?
No, the Bible does not say that the Trinity is meant to be mysterious. It does; however, say, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." (1Tim 3:16)
This scripture speaks of the mystery of the dual nature of Jesus--the God/Man. And, people seem to have as hard a time understanding the Trinity as they do the God/Man.
The Bible clearly reveals the Trinity.
Genesis starts with God the Father speaking(The Logos/Jesus) as the Spirit moves on the face of the water. Later God says, "Let Us make man in Our Image."
I'm sure you are aware of, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:13-17).
In this passage we see God the Father speaking to God the Son, as God the Spirit(in the form of a dove)descended upon Him. Three distinct Persons of the Godhead.
See also, Matthew 28:19,20; I Corinthians 12:4-6; and Ephesians 4:4-6. There are many more!
On Mars Hill the Apostle Paul told the Athenians that "we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man" (Acts 17:29).
And after His resurrection, Jesus told His disciples to baptize new believers into the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Three persons of the Godhead with One Name, YHWH!
Do you find it mysterious?
In conclusion, speaking of Jesus, you said, "Existing before David, does not make him God. Having a virgin birth does not make him God. Bringing people back to life and curing the sick does not make him god. Others have done all this before, in the bible... These things don't make him God, because these are not exclusive qualities of God. Exclusive qualities are no beginning, no end. Being the greatest of all etc."
You are right that a few prophets in the Old Testament times were empowered by YHWH to perform a few miracles and healings and resurrections, but certainly nothing comparable to what Jesus did.
He healed multitudes of people-- the lame, blind, deaf, dumb, lepers, the paralyzed, those with withered and missing limbs, those possessed by demons, and those afflicted with a variety of diseases. And, He also raised the dead and forgave sins!
He did those things because He is God! He told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I Am." I Am means the Eternally Existing One. And to top it off Jesus said, "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and the End, The First and the Last." Rev 22:13
Those are exclusive qualities indeed! And He is the Greatest of All!
I'll try to get to your other comments soon.
Grace and peace to you.
THE TRINITY
ReplyDeleteNow you say the following:
"Yahweh has revealed Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Godhead eternally existing as 3 persons in an intimate personal relationship with one another."
Now a Godhead existing of 3 persons is not mysterious I can understand that. A Godhead of hindu / Greek Gods i can understand.
A God that has revealed himself in 3 forms, i can still understand. But thats not the problem. The issue non trinitarians non believers such as myself have is not this.
Christians don't believe in a Godhead, perhaps you thought of it as such to make sense to you.
Christianity belief is ONE God in three persons and each one is fully God.
So when Jesus came down to earth that was all of God fully, yet he spoke to the father in heaven who was also full God. If you remove the father from the equation and Jesus. The holy ghost is all God. If one is all God, how can the other exist? So each part that is divided into 3 is also the whole and each part is also the other part fully. Thats the issue.
So jesus is all god, the father is all God, the holy spirit too, each individually is all God.
So you have 3 full fledged Gods. But you believe they are not 3 Gods but one. cONFUSION has passed over my face, again :)
Added to this you believe, Jesus as a full God, created Mary, then overshadowed her, then was born from her. I wonder what mary calls the father?, 'Father', 'Son'. Yet Mary is not a God, she is a human and gave birth to a fully God.
Jesus of course is said to have two natures and the human nature came into play when he was born. So at that point the nature of God changed. Or he was always human in which case God has always been part human.
Also jesus is also fully God, yet fully human. If this part of him is fully human then all parts are fully human too because jesus is fully God. Man i'm blowing a fuse thinking about this.
Added to the facts, that none of this is supported in the bible, closest thing is first epistle of John perhaps, "there are 3 that bear accord in heaven..." etc. But this was thrown out as an interpolation by 50 church demoninations etc and is not in the RSV which goes back to the most ancient Manuscripts. We have a problem you see.
So whats the concept of God in Islam, lets take it direct from the Quran:
"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him."
Qur'an 112:1-4
Now with the above verse, God is defined (as much as God can be). For muslims any god that fits into this definition, we haven't a problem with. I will call Jesus God, if he fits into this definition or the holy spirit or the one you claim is father.
In Islam, God is one, he is eternal and absolute. He wasn't begotten nor does he beget (else he wouldn't remain one) and there is nothing in the heavens and the earth that is like him, of the same substance as him, as great as him, more beautiful than him. We cannot even compare something to God,because the comparison means he is like that thing to a certain level. i invite you to find a fault with this. You see, God is not said to be like this or that or to have this and that.
So if the trinity is mysterious and Allah is not. Does that make the muslim position is more logical in this aspect? Think about it. If one makes sense and the other one is said to be myserious, which one would be easier to follow. So my question to you is which is more logical?
Rehan, you said, "Christians don't believe in a Godhead..."
DeleteI quoted Paul's use of that term on Mars Hill in my last response so I won't repeat it here.
You continued, "Christianity belief is ONE God in three persons and each one is fully God... So you have 3 full fledged Gods. But you believe they are not 3 Gods but one. CONFUSION has passed over my face, again" :)
That is why I said the Trinity is mysterious. The ONE God has revealed Himself to us as eternally existing in Three Persons and we believe Him even if we don't have full understanding. We are not God, and so, we will never fully understand God as He Is in Himself but I don't feel confused because I trust Him.
I believe YHWH (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) created all things that have been created, including Mary. The Bible says the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus "took on flesh".
How can Jesus be Fully God and Fully Man? The answer is that He has always been Fully God and He chose to add Fully Man to His Nature so He could totally relate to us and die for our sins. This was God's plan before He ever created mankind.
YHWH knew mankind would fall into sin and He knew Jesus would die to save them. That's why Jesus was called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8 NKJV)
He could not have been a "sacrificial lamb" without a body! His physical body was what Abraham prophetically referred to when Isaac asked him about the lamb for the sacrifice. Abraham said, “God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” (Genesis 22:8) [God provided a lamb in the OT to replace Isaac and Jesus died for us on the cross in the NT.]
You said, referring to the Trinity and the Dual Nature of Jesus Christ, "none of this is supported in the bible. We have a problem you see."
I'll let Jesus speak for Himself.
Jesus chided some of the doubting disciples before He revealed Himself to them as their risen Lord following His resurrection. He said, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)
Yes, the Fully God/Fully Man Jesus was predicted throughout the Old Testament and clearly revealed in the New Testament.
Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? (Mark 12:24)
This statement has a context but the truth stated has a broad application. God's Word is True and His power is Unlimited!
You concluded this section with a sampling of the Quran's description of God. You said, "In Islam, God is one, he is eternal and absolute. He wasn't begotten nor does he beget... and there is nothing in the heavens and the earth that is like him, of the same substance as him, as great as him, more beautiful than him... I invite you to find a fault with this. You see, God is not said to be like this or that or to have this and that. So if the trinity is mysterious and Allah is not. Does that make the muslim position more logical in this aspect?
Rehan, with all due respect, I cannot question YHWH's revelation of Himself to mankind based on the Quran's description of Allah. In fact, Allah seems more mysterious than the Trinity. He seems more remote. He doesn't reveal a great deal of love for mankind. He doesn't promote Himself as a Savior. He doesn't seem approachable-- even in the afterlife. He is a loner. He insists he has no son and he doesn't relate personally with his followers.
YHWH, on the other hand, loves mankind-- every person! He offers salvation by grace through faith! He has adopted believers as His dear children. Jesus promises to spend eternity With Us! Responding to YHWH seems logical to me.
A. Patriarch March 7, 2013
DeleteHi Cherel,
I'm going to write this post in a few parts. I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond until they are all done.
Tetragrammaton (YHWH)
You say: "Thus, the original pronunciation has been lost and Yahweh is the closest scholars can get to it."
Now you have said something inaccurate here--the pronounciation has not been lost. The name of God has been lost. Because if something was too holy to say, then it was probably too holy to write and substituted with these letters. My question to you is........What did Jesus call God?
Hi, Rehan,
I've received 3 parts from you now and it's getting really lengthy so I've decided to start responding. And, since there is so much to cover, I've decided to condense and respond in short installments.
The ancient Jewish scribes were very careful to preserve the written Name of God. They were hesitant to say it aloud because of the command not to take it in vain. But writing YHWH was the accurate way to write The Name since Hebrew writing does not include the vowels. I don't think reputable scholars dispute the validity of the sacred name,YHWH.
Jesus usually called God, "My Father".
He said, "My Father and I are One", "In My Father's house are many dwelling places", etc.) It was the most natural form of address since He is The Son of God. And, He also taught His followers to pray to "Our Father in heaven," since He has adopted believers as sons of God.
More soon.
A. Patriarch March 7, 2013 continued
DeleteCherel, you say the bible should be 'rightly divided' and studied. I agree wholeheartedly, but why so onesidedly.
The trinity is mysterious.
The dual nature of Jesus is myterious.
The Bible is mysterious.
The Name of God is mysterious.
Are there any other mysteries? So that I know what I should ignore and what's up for debate?
***[Rehan, we can discuss all topics but I can't change the Word of God to make it more acceptable to the natural man. The deepest truths of God's Word are spiritually discerned. You must have eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart that wants to know the truth before you can receive it.] CSJ
In Islam God is one, eternal absolute, does not beget and is not begotten, and there is nothing like unto him.
I can understand that. I don't know what it's like to be eternal but I can understand it.
***[If there is nothing like him, what do you really know about him? How can you relate to him? Trust him? etc.]CSJ
Your concept of the trinity is not mysterious. It's illogical, it doesn't make sense. You can't have a square circle and you can't have someone that's fully God and fully human. Just the knowledge of you being God, does not leave you as a human.
***[Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? (Mark 12:24) God can do what man cannot do.] CSJ
If I knew I was God, then I would jump on a cross to be crucified, without that knowledge I would never dare. The act is diminished by the knowledge itself. I mean was Jesus' act of sacrifice really that great, when he knew he was a God and would rise etc?
***[Rehan, you have it backwards. As God, Jesus chose to die for our sins, but His dual nature shrank from it. He asked the Father 3 times to deliver Him. The agony He felt during His prayer caused Him to sweat great drops of blood. Sweating blood only happens when a person is under excruciating mental/physical/spiritual pressure.
His flesh dreaded the torture and humiliation of the process and His human/Divine Soul recoiled from bearing the iniquity of all mankind. His foreknowledge of what He would suffer increased the dread of it. But He was victorious!
Read Isaiah 53. It says YHWH "laid on Him the iniquity of us all." It says YHWH "put Him to grief" and made "His soul an offering for sin." It says Jesus "poured out His soul unto death...bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." The agony Jesus experienced is beyond our comprehension. We will never fully understand how much Jesus/God suffered for us. But, I thank YHWH, He did!] CSJ
You see you don't get any of this with Islam. Everything is clearly out there and defined, NO mysteries at all. :-)
Even muslim groups that disagree with each other, don't disagree on things like this. They disagree on the application of laws, not on theology.
***[You offer a very superficial view of Islam. But my experience reading the Quran tells a different story.
It can't even be understood without reading all kinds of background material (Hadiths, etc).
Difficult or easy, the bottom line here is Truth. We cannot make God be more or less than He Is. We can accept or reject His revelation to us, but we cannot change it. I believe The Holy Bible is YHWH's written revelation to mankind. I believe Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe there is no way to be saved but through accepting the forgiveness of sin provided by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross of Calvary and trusting Him to resurrect to eternal life all those who put their trust in him.] CSJ
More soon.
Hi Rehan,
DeleteThis is extra! God likes mysteries. Here are a few listed in scripture.
Mystery of Godliness
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:16
Mystery of Christ Indwelling Believers
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: " Colossians 1:26-28
Mysteries of the kingdom of heaven
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:10-11
Mystery of Resurrection Body!
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1st Corinthians 15:51-52
Mystery of Israel's temporary partial blindness
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25
Mystery of Marriage and Christ's love for the Church
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:29-32
Mystery of God's Will
"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" Ephesians 1:9-10
http://access-jesus.com/bible-list-of-mysteries.html
A. Patriarch March 15th, 2013 prt 1 OF 2
DeleteHi Cherel......
First off......
You say: "You are right that a few prophets in the Old Testament times were empowered by YHWH to perform a few miracles and healings and resurrections, but certainly nothing comparable to what Jesus did."
***[You posted my quote and then you went on, Rehan, to list miracles performed by Old Testament prophets trying to make the case that what Jesus did was no more than what they did. This reasoning is faulty. Why?
Because all those miracles were performed by God in answer to prayer or following His instructions. The prophets did a very limited number of miracles and did not originate them! And, they always gave GOD the credit.
HOW MANY WORKS DID JESUS DO? Besides all the individuals Jesus healed and delivered and raised from the dead, crowds of the sick and the possessed were brought to Him on many occasions and He healed THEM ALL!
John said HIS WORKS were beyond number! "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." John 21:25
JESUS CLAIMED PERSONAL POWER TO RAISE THE DEAD AND EMPOWERED HIS DISCIPLES TO CAST OUT DEMONS AND HEAL THE SICK. NO PROPHET ever DID THAT.
Jesus said to her, ‘I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE. Whoever believes in ME, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in ME shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that YOU ARE THE CHRIST, the SON of GOD, who is coming into the world.’ John 11:25-26
For this is the will of MY FATHER, THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS ON THE SON and BELIEVES IN HIM should have eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.’ John 6:40
For as the FATHER raises the dead and gives them life, so also THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL… John 5:21
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD, and those who hear will live. For as the FATHER has life in HIMSELF, so HE has granted THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF… John 5:25-26
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear HIS VOICE and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment… But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given ME to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the FATHER has sent ME." John 5:28-29
"And HE called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and GAVE THEM AUTHORITY over the unclean spirits… And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them." Mark 6:7, 13
Peter said, ‘I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, rise up and walk!’ And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. Acts 3:6
These scriptures are just samples. The Bible is filled with claims and proofs that Jesus is the SON of GOD!
NO PROPHET EVER MADE THESE CLAIMS OR HAD THESE RESULTS.
According to the Quran, Mohammad did no miracles.
More soon!
A. Patriarch March 15th, 2013 prt 2 OF 2
DeleteHi Cherel......
Now if you claim, Jesus' virgin birth or having no earthly father makes him God. Then is Adam not a greater God as he has no father or mother? Is Eve not a God for having no mother and being born from Adam?
***[Rehan, even the Quran talks about the creation of Adam and Eve as the first humans made by God. Created as humans in the image of God, but not Gods.
The virgin birth didn't make Jesus become God. He eternally exists as God the Son. God used a human virgin to give Jesus His human nature and body.] CSJ
But if that doesn't do it for you, let's try Melchizedek, who according to the bible. Had no father and no mother, he was ETERNAL. He is pre existing. He was a king of peace. He was annointed. He carried out a ritual of bread and wine. Both were high priests of God.
***[Another Bible mystery! You seem drawn to them. :-) OK.
Melchizedek. Who is he? Biblical scholars are uncertain because so little is known about him. You call him eternal and pre-existing and a high priest of God. The Bible does not use those terms. It calls Melchizedek a priest of the Most High God. While Jesus is called a High Priest many times in the book of Hebrews.] CSJ
Melchizedek: "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." (Heb. 7:3)
***[An interesting passage but not a complete picture of who he really is. The passage does not say he has no mother or father or genealogy. It does not say he was not born and did not die. It says "like the Son of God" (other translations say "made like the Son of God"). In other words, he is being used as a "type" of Christ for spiritual teaching.
The Bible does not reveal when he became a priest or when he stopped serving in that capacity. It doesn't tell us who his parents are. And, the Bible doesn't tell us when he was born and when he died. Obviously, unless he was a pre-incarnate form of Jesus, he was born and he died. He is not currently the King and Priest of Jerusalem and has been gone for so long that we have no historical details of his life apart from these biblical vignettes. Which is why he can be used as a "type" of Christ!
Jesus has no beginning or end! He is the true King of Peace and King of Righteousness and Eternal High Priest of the Most High God! He offered His own body (symbolized by bread) and His own blood (symbolized by wine) as the perfect and final sacrifice for sin.
"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Heb 7:25 Praise God!
Jesus is greater than Abraham so He blessed him and all the nations that would be blessed through him! Whoever Melchizedek is, he was a wonderful "type" of Christ.
Note: Some people actually believe he may have been Shem, the son of Noah, who lived to be 600 years old. Since man's lifespan dropped so drastically following the flood, a 600 year old man would seem to have an "endless life" compared to Abraham's generation who only lived around 175 years.] CSJ
Of course in Islam, we don't believe any being is eternal except God and no one can be similar to him in that.
All the prophets are moral characters and non committed any sins.
***[As far as I can tell, the Quran recognizes that Jesus is sinless-righteous but no one else. Even Mohammad said he had to repent many times a day. I don't understand why Muslims believe prophets are sinless when Muhammad said otherwise. The Bible says no man is without sin except the God/man Jesus!
I'm sure you noticed I shortened some of your statements. I did so to save space and time but I believe I answered your
concerns conscientiously.
I still have your last comments to answer and then we'll see where we stand.
Grace and peace to you, Rehan.
More soon.
A. Patriarch April 10, 2013 prt 1 of 2
DeleteHi Cherel,
Now my question about whether it was only Adam or did other humans also lose their relationship with God once he ate that apple? It seems like a very cruel God that wouldn't forgive the sin of simply eating an apple. They didn't kill someone, rape or mame. They just ate an apple. For which everyone since then bears the sin for eternity. Seems to me you require a saviour for something other religions would consider immoral: punishing someone for the sins of another.
***[Rehan, the Bible clearly teaches that Adam and Eve were the first humans created by GOD. They were created perfect and placed in a perfect environment. GOD provided everything the needed to have abundant life. He placed only one restriction on them which was to avoid eating the fruit of one tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden. The tree was not bad and the fruit was not bad. Disobedience was bad! Disobedience was what opened their eyes to know evil. It destroyed their innocence and separated them from GOD. They chose to sin against the Creator GOD who gave them life and every good benefit!
GOD was not cruel, they were wicked. GOD put them out of Eden because there was a Tree of Life in the garden which would have made them immortal in their sinfulness. Living forever in a sinful state is not good. Can you imagine Adolf Hitler living forever? The world would never know peace. And, that is why sin requires a death penalty.
It may not seem fair to us but all the children of Adam and Eve were born sinners. All human beings choose to sin. They don't start out perfect or get kicked out of Eden, but they choose to sin and they are punished for their own personal choices! If we die in sin, it's not because Adam and Eve sinned, it's because we sin and then refuse to accept the forgiveness provided by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross of Calvary. He's not a cruel GOD. He died for us so we could live!] CSJ ***
The Old Testament says: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Iniquity means sin or lawlessness.)
Now you say: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s (Jesus') obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19
Well that's not entirely accurate. According to your viewpoint, through one man's disobedience all men were made sinners and through one man's obedience a handful will be made righteous. Come on.......you quote logic but its hard to defend something logically when it doesn't purport logic. Let me ask you, why I should carry the sins of Adam. Did Adam/Eve ask me when eating the apple? Did they ask you or children who die in their infancy? Why should anyone carry the sins of another? You will claim of course god's justice is different.......so different it stands at a lower moral standing than humans? You don't need to know scripture here, the answer only requires common sense.
***[Rehan, I say again, every sinner who dies in sin, dies for his own sin. No one has ever died for another's sin, except for Jesus. He was sinless! And, He died for the sins of ALL! This puts GOD's Justice at a higher level than human justice! GOD, Himself, chose to die so we can be forgiven and live forever without a penalty!
Again, all men are sinners! All men have access to eternal life by faith in the blood of Jesus! If only a handful are made righteous, it is by their own choice.] CSJ***
see next comment for final remarks...
A. Patriarch April 10, 2013 prt 2 of 2
DeleteCherel,
In Islam, Adam and Eve did eat from the tree. But they were forgiven for their LITTLE mistake. It was a lesson by god to show them not to trust Satan and that when they go on earth he will be their enemy. In the Quran God is shown as caring, consoling them when they are scared.
***[Rehan, here's a quote from the Quran. I see no caring and consoling attitude. Even though they are repentant, he sends them "down" to the earth to live for an undetermined length of time with enmity (hatred) betweem them.
And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." (Allah) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time." Surah Al-Araf (7:19-24)
Allah offers no forgiveness, no help and no hope. Allah is not a Savior, a Redeemer, a Friend, a Lover, a Husband, a Father to his people. What is he? Who is he?
I could go through the Quran and pick out all kinds of inconsistencies and problems with the text if I wanted to debate with you for the sake of debate. I am not interested in that. I am interested in talking about our only real hope of salvation which is clearly presented in the Holy Bible to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Anyone sincerely looking for the truth will find it in GOD's WORD! And, I pray that you will.
This finishes my response to your latest comments. I hope my responses broaden your understanding and increase your desire for truth.
Grace and peace to all through Jesus Christ the Lord!
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DeleteThank you for your input. Your insight into the Muslim perspective is very helpful. It's too bad Tamarlan Tsarnaev never learned the truth about Jesus. His life would have been so different and there would be no suffering victims in Boston today.
ReplyDeleteHey Cherel,salaam, greeting !
ReplyDeletei just wanted to say that its good that you are reading ... i hope God will one day enlighten your mind and heart if you really want to..
in brief i wanted to say "islam is continouesion of REligion of God..
1. "Allah" is not a idol but a word for GOD in arabic both the christains and jews use Allah in arab world .
2. Muslims believe in the prophets and messengers of God from Adam to jesus,
3. Quran has remained unchanged whereas bible has thousands of version as whoever gets insipre start to write a bible..Quran was on the other hand completely unaltered not even a letter and this is accepted by both shia and sunni branches of islam as authentic.
4. just try to hear (voice) of the recitition of Quran.. and you will feel blissful its a literal words from GOD... you will then realise why muslim all over the world keep on reading it over adn over again.
5.the law of moses says there is one god. and the concept of trinity was never mentioned in Bible but it was introduced in christainity as the romans were idol worshipper particulary believing in multigod .. you can see lots of these things are passed to christainity .. hades, trinity etc..
i hope we all follow the path of GOd and share his grace --Amin
-Sohail
Greetings, Sohail.
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Since you are a Quran believing Muslim, I can understand your desire to exalt Allah and the Quran and to undermine the authenticity of God's Holy Word, The Bible. The Bible and the Quran share different messages. Most importantly, the Holy Bible tells us the plan of eternal salvation for all mankind through the sacrifice (in our place) of Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God.
I hear Muslims say, as you have, they believe in all the prophets of God. You included Jesus as a prophet you believe in. Why then do you not believe what He said? He said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."
According to Jesus, Himself, there is no way to be saved except by trusting in Him. I could quote many passages for you but I know your heart must be open to receive the truth or you cannot. Jesus also said no man can come to the Father unless the Spirit of God draws Him. So, I pray the Spirit will draw you to the truth that will set you free!
I have read the Quran several times now. I find no truth or light there. It is repetitive, disjointed and confusing. Without reading the Bible it would be impossible to even understand the relationship between some of the main characters mentioned. There are no genealogies showing the historical connection between Adam, the prophets, and finally Jesus. Allah is mysterious and aloof. He doesn't even try to come across as lovingly interested in mankind. He has no children and doesn't want any.
For my comments on the "origin" of today's Quran, see April 11, 2012, prt 2, in this flow of responses.
Have you read the Bible? If you haven't read it cover to cover, you can't be qualified to talk about whether it is authentic or not. I don't believe anyone can read through the Bible without being challenged by the TRUTH that Yahweh, our loving heavenly Father, has shared with us-- beginning to end. No other book tells the end from the beginning. It is loaded with fulfilled prophecies and prophecies still coming to pass. The reader is free to believe or reject what he reads, but he won't walk away from the experience unchanged.
You are right that Roman Catholicism has adopted many pagan concepts into their doctrine but Catholicism does not speak for the true followers of Jesus Christ. Jesus lives and reigns in the lives of individuals, not through organizations. May you know the truth that will set you free.
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." Deut 6:4, 5.
That is a very interesting statement. If Yahweh hadn't revealed Himself in a triune fashion from Genesis to Revelation, that statement of Oneness would not be needed. One is One without an explanation needed. Three as One requires just such a proclamation. Three bare witness from heaven, Father, Son and Spirit!
Grace and peace to you.
He who draws close to Me a hand's span, I will draw close to him an arm's length. And whoever draws near Me an arm's length, I will draw near him a fathom's length. And whoever comes to Me walking, I will go to him running. Hadith - Qudsi
DeleteYour God is One God. There is no god but Him, the All-Merciful, the Most Merciful. (Surat Al-Baqara, 163)
O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)
Everything in the heavens and everything in the earth belongs to Allah. He forgives whoever He wills and punishes whoever He wills. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surat Al ‘Imran, 129)
So he punishes whoever he wants and forgives whoever he wants, but he is ever forgiving. What does that mean? Doesn’t that mean that God can do both, but he always chooses the latter? Powerful stuff i know....... :)
Anyway, Cherel. thats it for me. Look forward to your replies, and hope you paste everything i said. It helps with the flow of understanding. I can see you replied to sohail, so let me quickly answer some points unless they remain unanswered.
Muslims who claim that there is only one Qur'an and that it has remained unchanged for centuries are either lying or grossly ignorant of their religion. Even today there are actually many versions of the Qur'an, such as Hafs, Warsh, al-Duri, al-Masud, Khalaf, etc. No, these are not just different dialects; many of the passages actually contain distinctly different words and have different meanings. Also, your own sira and hadith collections indicate that several verses of the Qur'an were lost before the suras were actually put together as one book.
DeleteThe claim that "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God" is also false. The general Arabic word for god is "ilah". "Allah is a contractions of "al-ilah", meaning "the (chief) god". That's because Allah was originally one of hundreds of gods worshipped in ancient Arabia. There is thus no connection between Allah and Yahweh.
Also, despite Muslim claims to the contrary, the plural unity of Yahweh is well-attested in the Old Testament. You see this in the constant juxtaposition of "Elohim" (God, plural) and "Yahweh"(singular). And Jesus certainly DID claim to be God in the Gospels - you need to have an understanding of the terms "Son of Man" and Son of God" in order to grasp this.
Last, I have read two versions of the Qur'an and have listened to it recited, yet still don't find it at all inspired. It is simply boring, repetitive, obscure, disjointed, and very harsh in its teachings. I have read several thousand ahadith plus the sira of Ibn Hisham. If anything, these are worse than the Qur'an. There is nothing in any of these texts that can compare with the spiritual beauty of Isaiah, let alone the wondrous promises of the Gospel. Who in his right mind would replace the love Yahweh gives humanity through Christ with the capricious whims of Allah, who MIGHT grant you salvation in return for performance of mindless repetitive rituals?
I challenge all Muslims to become as educated in Christianity as I am in Islam. Read the Bible from cover to cover with an open mind and heart. Discover the God Who is truly good rather than the "god" that only claims to be so. Compare the genuinely perfect Son of God with the starkly flawed human being (Muhammad) who only claimed to be a "beautiful pattern for mankind".
Once you encounter Christ with an open heart, there really is no point to Islam. Millions of former Muslims have discovered this truth for themselves and left Islam; millions more are in the process of following them. May God grant all Muslims their wisdom.
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after reading this article i would like to ask you .. have you even read the Qur'an? :D
ReplyDeletei'm a Muslim, i was born a Muslim and i've been reading the Qur'an since i was a kid!
i can see you only mentioned hell fire, while in fact there's a whole chapter in the Qur'an is called " The Beneficent" and you say hell was mentioned 97 times in the Qur'an while paradise was mentioned 139 times!
even the word "Mercy" was mentioned 268 times!!
Allah doesn't need to sacrifice his son in order to forgive our sins, if he's just and merciful why would he punish someone *let alone his beloved son* because of someone else's mistakes?
all you need in order to be forgiven is repent! that's it!
everyone will be held accountable for their own actions, no one is going to be rewarded or punished because of the deeds of someone else :)
and so many other points you mentioned that has nothing to do with the Qur'an!
so, with all due respect sir, i guess you're talking about another book! :)
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